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bruins

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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:40 am

Yak wrote:

My all time favorite reviewer's taste impression (wish I'd remembered his name to credit him) : a element of "sweaty girl bum."

A man after my own heart.

What a Face

that was beaupipe describing C&D Star of the East Flake--"because it tastes a bit like sweaty girlbum and I'll be a little lonely, I think. Nice Latakia to smoke in the winter." also my favorite review ever.

and you, yak, are one of the enthusiasts who's top five of particular categories would be nice know. you also make me want to age my escudo, which i tend to smoke away as i get it. you mean this stuff gets better?
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:04 pm

I guess what irritates me is that Crowdog is enthusiastic about a project that benefits those who are fumbling about finding a good representation of the different styles of tobacco ,,,doing no harm to anybody, and runs headlong into negative attitude. I don't think it's in the spirit of BOB,,,,To those who don't think it can be done successfully and is a total waste of time, don't get involved, don't participate, and ignore the project. I'm glad Thomas Edison ignored the naysayers,,,,I'd have appreciated a consolidated list and saved a bundle when I started,,,,

Rant done,,,whew,,,,

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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:10 pm

I think people got the wrong idea right away. maybe it's my fault, I tend to use a lot of words, and people tend to skim, which is not a great combination. whatevs. someday soon I'll have a couple of hours to myself and I have a good idea how I will spend them. if that helps anybody in the future, cool. if it turns into a total waste of time, no big loss.
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LL

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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:21 pm

mark wrote:
I guess what irritates me is that Crowdog is enthusiastic about a project that benefits those who are fumbling about finding a good representation of the different styles of tobacco ,,,doing no harm to anybody, and runs headlong into negative attitude. I don't think it's in the spirit of BOB,,,,To those who don't think it can be done successfully and is a total waste of time, don't get involved, don't participate, and ignore the project. I'm glad Thomas Edison ignored the naysayers,,,,I'd have appreciated a consolidated list and saved a bundle when I started,,,,

Rant done,,,whew,,,,

Mark --

By floating an idea and asking for input, the "burden of ignoring" lies with the initiator, I think. Because while a majority of people in the world subscribe to the "feelings trump facts" worldview, not all of them do. And and a cattle call post is a cattle call post. Ya get what ya get.

As for the whole attitude thing, I guess what irritates me is the relentless insistence of the Feelings-Trump-Facts'ers that the rest of the world respect their optimism---regardless of whether it is justified or not---like it is a religion not to be blasphemed. Rolling Eyes

Maybe what the board needs is some sort of FTF indicator that people can set in their profile. A colored box that appears around their avatar, maybe, that indicates how likely they are to be butt hurt when disagreed with. Red for very, yellow for somewhat, and green for never.


Last edited by LL on Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:26 pm

ok, it's definitely not my fault.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:45 pm

Bruins : there is an assumption operating here that everybody tries everything and ranks it. Maybe, for some, that's part of the "hobby." I never saw any point to taking the butterfly approach, preferring to search for something -- anything -- that could be anywhere near as good as Balkan Sobranie Virginian Nr. 10 was. (Sob !)

In the process, noteworthy stuff like Penzance, Stonehaven and Escudo were crashing disappointments -- gave the first two away minus one bowlful, and am only persevering with one bowl of Escudo every three months (and it was aged 4 years when a friend bombed me with it) to see if it ever stops tasting like dirt. Apparently, not.

Having a non-cathoiic, monogamous orientation, I can list you five outstandingly choice tobacs, but not (IMHO) the best five in any genre. The seek-no-furthers are, in no particular order,

1) Union Square (pure Virginia)

2) Full Virginia Flake (enhanced Virginia)

3) Blackpoint (English-Balkan with a hint of Perique)

4) Odyssey (Balls to the Wall Balkan)

5) Embarcadero (Virginia-Izmir. Initially underwealming until you "get it." Then it's like catnip is to a cat).

If you don't want to leave McClellands out of the picture, Tudor Castle Arcade. And if a subtle hint of cigar leaf in a big English would go down well (and it does on this end), Robusto.

The only one I'd recommend out of a new tin would be the Tudor Castle Arcade. With the rest, the longer you can wait, the better they'll be. Blackpoint after four years is utterly transcendental.

FWIW

What a Face


Last edited by Yak on Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:49 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:47 pm

CD : Maybe you could explain why the GIGO principle (garbage in -> garbage out) is not the root issue ?

What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:18 pm

nice post, yak. actually, i have some blackpoint someone gave me. i better leave it on the back of the shelf before giving it a whirl.

i get why people who have smoked for awhile are resistant to rank or quantify anything, especially with the many factors you listed a couple posts ago. for the newbie, of which i still consider myself one, lists like the one you just presented, are important, both for knowledge and exploring. whether or not i will end up agreeing with your tastes is the uncontrollable factor, but it does give me references, even if i hate some of the blends another hobbiest loves to death.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:03 pm

the garbage in garbage out principle, used in this instance, seems to be implying that the opinions of seasoned members of BoB are just garbage. That's the garbage in, and me making note of those opinions and organizing them would be the garbage out. Therefore no one should ask which blend is a classic example of a full Balkan, because any answer given will just be garbage.

I, on the other hand, think that if I ask BoB members who love full Balkans to recommend a blend that exemplifies the style, their opinion is not garbage. Sure, it's just their opinion, but it's a lot better than asking my neighbor who has never smoked a day in his life. It's a lot better than relying on the prosaic copy on the tins. And if 20 of those BoB members recommend a particular blend, it's a good bet that it is a better place for me to start than say, a blend that only 1 person recommended, or one that has a pretty label. It doesn't guarantee that the most recommended blends are somehow absolutely better than others, it merely implies that people who love this style seem to agree on some good examples.

All I wanted to do was compile the recommendations that have been given here on BoB, and see which ones were recommended the most. That's all. It's ridiculously simple. Yes, I did ask for input, about whether this already exists (and I got some input on that) and whether there are blend "styles" or categories that I should remember to include.

Somehow this simple notion, which can be done on a napkin, got twisted into the absolute impossibility of the idea and then the absolute irrelevance of any patterns. So in essence, if I've never tried a "Virginia" in my life and I want to... where do I start? If it turns out that BoB members who love Virginias recommend Union Square, Best Brown Flake, and FVF more than any others, should I consider that information garbage when I'm trying to decide where to start my own experiences with Virginias? If someone else wants to consider that garbage, that's their business. But I think I'd try the top 5 most recommended and see if I like any. If I hated them all, maybe I'd try a different style. Maybe I'd try the next 5 on the list. But regardless, I wouldn't blame the recommendations as "garbage". If the recommendations of BoB members are garbage, why should I consider the recommendation of a tobacconist to be any different? After all, he has a financial interest in selling me something he has in stock and that costs more than others.

The garbage in garbage out principle, in this instance, seems to imply that the recommendations shared on BoB are garbage. Personally, I find it helpful to draw on the experiences of others, even if my results vary.

I don't understand how the touchy-feely feelgood vs fact thing came into it. And honestly, I don't see it as a particularly productive avenue of discussion.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:23 pm

thecrowdog wrote:


The garbage in garbage out principle, in this instance, seems to imply that the recommendations shared on BoB are garbage. Personally, I find it helpful to draw on the experiences of others, even if my results vary.

Oh, please. I said nothing of the sort. Stop trying to characterize my opinion of the members of this board in such a transparently cheap-shot fashion.

GIGO it is a well-understood, tongue-in-cheek principle of data processing that refers to any error of input that results in bad or unreliable output. In the case of a tobacco recommendations database there are too many to list. The quality of individual opinions is simply a null set in such a scenario---people like what they like because they like it, and for no other reason---it does not make their opinion "garbage."

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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:44 pm

well just to be clear to you and anyone else, that is what "garbage in garbage out" means to ME in relation to this idea, this instance (as I said). I am not characterizing how you feel about BoB, only what I feel about a "garbage in garbage out" philosophy applied to this idea. As far as I can tell, you were referring to tobaccoreviews dot com.

And again, I don't see this as a productive line of conversation. I deeply regret bringing up the idea at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:54 pm

thecrowdog wrote:
well just to be clear to you and anyone else, that is what "garbage in garbage out" means to ME in relation to this idea, this instance (as I said). I am not characterizing how you feel about BoB, only what I feel about a "garbage in garbage out" philosophy applied to this idea. As far as I can tell, you were referring to tobaccoreviews dot com.

And again, I don't see this as a productive line of conversation. I deeply regret bringing up the idea at all.

Trying to figure out that first paragraph makes my head hurt.

As for the second, as I said before, you wanted feedback and you got it. You don't have to pay the slightest attention to anyone. That's hardly cause for regret, or for not giving the project your best shot. Fire away.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:24 pm

You can compile it. So go compile it already. In the end it'll be nothing but another useless list of something a small segment of a bigger population chose at a specific point in time, not relevant to to any actual preference trend (go to sales figures for that). Hit the "What are you smoking?" threads, there you'll find the most likely trends on this forum based on what people actually smoke.

It'll be just another list to be lost in the ether unless you have something really unique to do with it after it's compiled. I'm not trying to be a prick, but really, you've done plenty of arguing about why you should be able to compile it without malice, but you've got nothing original that you profess to be doing with the information. Nothing that isn't already being done, anyhow. You got a couple negatives and a couple of atta boys, so go do it and show us something already. Just don't make it a bunch of Basketball that only serves to produce Sleep


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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:20 pm

Yak wrote:
CD : Maybe you could explain why the GIGO principle (garbage in -> garbage out) is not the root issue ?

What a Face

my bad, I thought he meant me.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:01 pm

This is an idea that's been kicked around for years.

The bottom line problem is the abundance of people who don't know how to fill or smoke a pipe in the first place writing half-baked impressions based on half a bowl of something out of a desire to see themselves in print. My all-time favorite is the turkey who summarised everything GLP's ever made as having "the trademark taste of crap."

Slice it, dice it, run it through the statistical veg-o-matic any way you like, but garbage in yields garbage out.

Even if you come up with a B.S. Detector to weed out the me-toos and wanna-be poseurs (some of whom are a lot more articulate than others), fact is that there are folks who can detect a 2% presence of some little-known condimental leaf in a blend, but who cannot "taste" the Lakeland Shampoo in so many of the SG & GH offerings. At all. (!!!!!!!) People just don't all have the same taste mechanism or acuity. Even when impressions are congruent, they're still ideosyncratic.

What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:35 pm

Good luck with your project Crowdog
http://www.wimp.com/buildsinstrument/
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:06 pm

Yak nailed it cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:42 pm

The sad thing is that no one has "nailed" anything, because it doesn't seem like anyone is actually reading the posts, or "listening" to what anyone else is trying to say. And, if it's all garbage in/out, why isn't there a requirement of a satisfactory grade on some sort of pipe smoking competency test in order to post tobacco reviews? The "experts" can administer the test in order to keep all the newbees and poseurs from posting about things they obviously don't understand. I tend to self regulate when it comes to posting about tobacco, because I realize that my knowledge is extremely limited in that regard, but at the same time I would loathe myself for indiscriminately shooting down a novice for asking a "silly" question about vintage guitars or amplifiers (something I have expertise in). I guess what's really bugging me is the lack of real communication and "brotherly" understanding around here lately. And yes, I know how new I am to this, how I've only been hanging around here for a month or so, and maybe I'm terribly naive, but it's just that it was SO easy to REALLY like this forum when I found it. Maybe it was just an illusion, or maybe I just need to grow up. Hopefully I won't wake up to regret volunteering my opinions, or maybe I'll be exiled to a forum more my speed, like The Society of Nice Guys who are supportive and offer constructive advice to each other. I think the average guy gets enough grief out there in the real world, and it seems like the nasty spirit in which this harmless thread unraveled was not at all necessary. I know I'm setting myself up for the inevitable snarky reply, and that's what's so surprising, because I didn't think this was THAT kind of forum. SIGH...
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:29 pm

Harlock999 wrote:
The sad thing is that no one has "nailed" anything, because it doesn't seem like anyone is actually reading the posts, or "listening" to what anyone else is trying to say. And, if it's all garbage in/out, why isn't there a requirement of a satisfactory grade on some sort of pipe smoking competency test in order to post tobacco reviews? The "experts" can administer the test in order to keep all the newbees and poseurs from posting about things they obviously don't understand. I tend to self regulate when it comes to posting about tobacco, because I realize that my knowledge is extremely limited in that regard, but at the same time I would loathe myself for indiscriminately shooting down a novice for asking a "silly" question about vintage guitars or amplifiers (something I have expertise in). I guess what's really bugging me is the lack of real communication and "brotherly" understanding around here lately. And yes, I know how new I am to this, how I've only been hanging around here for a month or so, and maybe I'm terribly naive, but it's just that it was SO easy to REALLY like this forum when I found it. Maybe it was just an illusion, or maybe I just need to grow up. Hopefully I won't wake up to regret volunteering my opinions, or maybe I'll be exiled to a forum more my speed, like The Society of Nice Guys who are supportive and offer constructive advice to each other. I think the average guy gets enough grief out there in the real world, and it seems like the nasty spirit in which this harmless thread unraveled was not at all necessary. I know I'm setting myself up for the inevitable snarky reply, and that's what's so surprising, because I didn't think this was THAT kind of forum. SIGH...

For what it's worth, I agree with you. I've been hanging out here a little bit longer than you (though I'm not a heavy poster, because I write all day in my real job), and I was more than a little surprised at the tone of the "feedback" provided. But so be it.

For my own part, I'll encourage you to do whatever helps you make sense of the great diversity of tobacco currently available. If it turns out that a compilation of recommendations helps other smokers who may find themselves paralyzed by choice, then so much the better. If it also turns out that others criticize your list as hokum and hogwash, that's fine, too. That's the price you sometimes have to pay when you put yourself out there among the wolves.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Hear hear, Chris I agree with you wholeheartedly. I also found the BoB a wonderful easygoing community who seemed very supportive of one another. But there has been an ominous cloud of doom circling about as of late. Pity though I was really beginning to like this place. CD I am very supportive of your venture and it's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for, to guide me as a relative newbie, with regards to my upcoming baccy purchases.

I certainly hope your zeal has not been tainted by the naysayers and that you go ahead with compiling your idea .... whether it be on this board or not.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:59 am

Harlock999 wrote:
The sad thing is that no one has "nailed" anything, because it doesn't seem like anyone is actually reading the posts, or "listening" to what anyone else is trying to say. And, if it's all garbage in/out, why isn't there a requirement of a satisfactory grade on some sort of pipe smoking competency test in order to post tobacco reviews? The "experts" can administer the test in order to keep all the newbees and poseurs from posting about things they obviously don't understand. I tend to self regulate when it comes to posting about tobacco, because I realize that my knowledge is extremely limited in that regard, but at the same time I would loathe myself for indiscriminately shooting down a novice for asking a "silly" question about vintage guitars or amplifiers (something I have expertise in). I guess what's really bugging me is the lack of real communication and "brotherly" understanding around here lately. And yes, I know how new I am to this, how I've only been hanging around here for a month or so, and maybe I'm terribly naive, but it's just that it was SO easy to REALLY like this forum when I found it. Maybe it was just an illusion, or maybe I just need to grow up. Hopefully I won't wake up to regret volunteering my opinions, or maybe I'll be exiled to a forum more my speed, like The Society of Nice Guys who are supportive and offer constructive advice to each other. I think the average guy gets enough grief out there in the real world, and it seems like the nasty spirit in which this harmless thread unraveled was not at all necessary. I know I'm setting myself up for the inevitable snarky reply, and that's what's so surprising, because I didn't think this was THAT kind of forum. SIGH...

Very well stated, Harlock, I completely agree.

I really went back and forth about whether or not to post my opinion here. Well, here it is: I personally find this thread very upsetting, and that was all the way back on page one. The fact that it has "unravelled" to this point is very difficult for me to understand. To be honest, it has really bothered me. I find it odd that crow set out with nothing but the best of intentions, with an idea that I think is not only honorable, in that he was willing to do the work, but actually a great idea. Why not a general reference guide to some of the more popular blends from each genre, as recommended by some of the members here? Cool, great idea, go for it, would seem to be the type of feedback I would expect. And even if it was an abysmal idea, one that had been tried and failed many times, how about some TACT in explaining that? Maybe even just a modicum! I mean WOW. Really? I just don't get it!

Heck, worst case scenario, it doesn't work as expected, for whatever reason. So what! Best case, everyone wins. I for one know I would have been very interested in such a resource/list of recommendations when I was starting out. Shoot, I would more than likely find it interesting as the somewhat-intermediate newb that I am right now! Gosh, I really just can't see what all the fuss is about!

BUT! In the spirit of Brothers of Briar, I say, go for it Crow!

By the way, I think that it is worth mentioning that seeing as how several members now have posted their concern regarding this, it just MIGHT be an indicator that something went awry here.

TB Over and Out!
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PostSubject: Pretest   Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:08 am

How about running a short pretest? Solicit a small number of respondents (say, BoB members) and asking them to list their current 5 blends and put them in the categories you've delineated here.

After you receive a small sample -- say 50 respondents? you could run a cross tabulation on the results. Certainly not representative, but that's not the point, yet --

So if I looked at "Escudo" in the list, it could tell me that Escudo smokers also liked (for example) Odyssey, Commonwealth, Squadron Leader, in declining order of preference.

If it seemed to work as a guide, great. It does seem to me that the tobacco ordering pages at smokingpipes.com does something similar with the "People who bought X a;so bought Y" function.

If it doesn't add a level of information that cannot be duplicated elsewhere, so be it; models are models for that very reason.

Just my two cents.
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:48 am

Harlock999 wrote:
The sad thing is that no one has "nailed" anything, because it doesn't seem like anyone is actually reading the posts, or "listening" to what anyone else is trying to say. And, if it's all garbage in/out, why isn't there a requirement of a satisfactory grade on some sort of pipe smoking competency test in order to post tobacco reviews? The "experts" can administer the test in order to keep all the newbees and poseurs from posting about things they obviously don't understand. I tend to self regulate when it comes to posting about tobacco, because I realize that my knowledge is extremely limited in that regard, but at the same time I would loathe myself for indiscriminately shooting down a novice for asking a "silly" question about vintage guitars or amplifiers (something I have expertise in). I guess what's really bugging me is the lack of real communication and "brotherly" understanding around here lately. And yes, I know how new I am to this, how I've only been hanging around here for a month or so, and maybe I'm terribly naive, but it's just that it was SO easy to REALLY like this forum when I found it. Maybe it was just an illusion, or maybe I just need to grow up. Hopefully I won't wake up to regret volunteering my opinions, or maybe I'll be exiled to a forum more my speed, like The Society of Nice Guys who are supportive and offer constructive advice to each other. I think the average guy gets enough grief out there in the real world, and it seems like the nasty spirit in which this harmless thread unraveled was not at all necessary. I know I'm setting myself up for the inevitable snarky reply, and that's what's so surprising, because I didn't think this was THAT kind of forum. SIGH...
As far as I am concerned, you are definitely preaching to the choir here!!! The tone of this thread doesn't even slightly resemble the tone that I found on this board when I first joined. When I joined BoB, it appeared that the spirit of brotherhood abounded. But, it is certainly lacking in this thread!! Speaking as one who once thought I had found the best forum on the internet in BoB and had found a permanent home here, I certainly don't like what I'm seeing now!!! And, I know... I am more than welcome to head out the door! That much has been made clear!!

Crowdog... if you want to spend your time compiling a list such as you have outlined, go for it, my brother!! I am another one of those who would find and would have found such a list helpful when trying to figure out what would be on my very first pipe tobacco order. I too applaud your willingness to do the work and your desire to help out newbies!! Despite what you have been told, both are VERY commendable!!!! But, if you decided to 86 the whole idea after seeing how this thread has gone, I would completely understand... and, wouldn't blame you in the least!!!!

Oh... and, speaking of "garbage"... this thread appears to me to have "garbage" similar to that which is commonly found inside the Rubber Room!!!!!!!!!

I do hope that this post contains enough relative substance!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:43 am

Dear guys who have been (apparently) gravely offended,

A question:

If the OP's question was merely rhetorical---meaning it was really only a call for a chorus of encouragement---and nothing but such a response was acceptable, then what was the point of asking at all?

A look at the how the opinions fell out show a 100% correspondence according to experience. The new(er) guys think a tobacco recommendation database is a great idea, while those who have been around awhile---and seen such projects fizzle countless times---think it is not.

Hm.

Trout Bum --- If someone showed up at your guide service with a saltwater trolling rod, a 9/0 reel, and 130 pound test line, and declared their intention limit out on brook trout with it after an hour on the river, would you encourage them or not?

That's what I thought.

So, to those who think BoB is an unfriendly place because it can be counted on for straight talk, so be it. That's your prerogative. But I assure you there are many who prefer it for exactly that reason. "Getting along" on BoB has much more to do with deeply rooted personal respect between its members than being Feelgood Zone. The latter can be found in great abundance on the Net, while the former is rare indeed.

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PostSubject: Re: Idea for a "Recommendations" resource   Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:27 am

LL wrote:
Dear guys who have been (apparently) gravely offended,


So, to those who think BoB is an unfriendly place because it can be counted on for straight talk, so be it.

If you believe that irony (the trope you're employing in the first line), and "straight talk" (the logic to which you're appealing in the last) have anything to do with each other, then it's time to go back to school.

Anyway, I'm properly chastened and will henceforth quietly observe the failures of the earliest BoB registrants so I may better understand my own limits. Thank you for setting me straight.

Perhaps the mods can make the registration dates in the profiles
REALLY, REALLY BIG so that it'll be easier for some of us simple folk to judge the credibility of the posters and hence the merit of the posts.
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Idea for a "Recommendations" resource
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