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 Mixed signals: Japan/US

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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:16 am

First: If another mod feels this should be in the RR move it..

Japan is assuring her citizenry that those reactors, while unstable, are under control.. (that seems like a contradiction) and yet they are still evacuating people..

The US NRC went on record that they pose minimal danger yet the Reagan Carrier Group is pulling away..

Is this the Governments being cautious or is this the Governments trying to prevent panic or is it both/neither?


(I admit to being an anti-government conspiracy theorist nut job, but i really can't cipher this one out)
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:37 am

In any disaster on that scale, Crowd Control is Job One.

What's the first thing "the authorities" always say ? "Stay calm . . ."

For that matter, what does the Angel say any time he shows up ?

"Fear not . . ."

Right out of the playbook.

What a Face
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:01 am

I heard " don't look at the man behind the curtain" too, but seeing as how your the other resident "nut job" I'm not sure how much that helps.. Lol
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Doc Manhattan

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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:41 am

The evacuating people, I understand. Even if nothing goes worse, they know something's gone wrong, and there might be another aftershock. Not to mention it wouldn't be a picnic trying to survive in a disaster area without any nuclear worries. Evacuating on the side of caution won't make things worse.

Outside of that, Japan's a very "nail that sticks up gets hammered down" culture. The default is remain stoic and go with the group flow. If the President has to remind people to remain calm and stay patiently in line, it must be really dire.

(That said, obviously I *hope* the most calm and optimistic assessments are true.)
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MisterE
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:29 pm

Who knows, it´s probably just being safe "just in case".

I want to believe that it´s under control and the evacuation is just a precaution. But who knows? Hopefully they´ve read up on Chernobyl....
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CLRV

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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:33 pm

I did my EMS training in a post-9/11 world; as such we received a *massive* amount of MCI training (multiple casualty incident). The primary goal of any at least marginally competent governing force, whether municipal, state, or fed, should be the mitigation of major casualties. Doing so by evacuation, if available, is preferred. I say "if available" because in certain situations the panic it would cause outweighs the loss of life. Consider this terrible (but plausible) scenario:

A bomb is going to go off somewhere in a city. They don't know where, but it will kill 1000-3000 people. They can either announce that there is a bomb somewhere in the city or they can say nothing. The probable cost of a city wide panic/riot would arguably be much higher than the single death toll. The balancing of evils.

They may be correct in their statement that it is unstable but currently under control; hell, it may even be a 80 or 90% chance everything is fine. But what if that 10-20% happens?

You cover your ass and try to make the casualty count plummet. Thus, you calmly evacuate as many people as you can until everything is deemed within normal safe operating levels.

Alternatively, they may know that that thing is going to go in the next two days and they are lying that everything will be fine to prevent the panic and try to save as many people as they can.

Or, no one knows what will happen and they are trying to cover as many bases as they can as fast as possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:41 pm

There were two experts in the field discussing the situation on the radio this morning... they were acting like actual experts and thus had to preface every other statement with "if," but one thing they can know with some certainty is that the design of the plant contains several failsafes that Chernobyl didn't have. Of course, if every failsafe fails before containment is restored, you might have a worst-case scenario, albeit probably a slower-acting worst-case than Chernobyl.

(My gallows humour keeps making me think of Mr. Burns saying, "Homer, your bravery and quick thinking have turned a potential Chernobyl into a mere Three Mile Island. Bravo!")
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Bub

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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:54 pm

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Hermit

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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:34 pm

Has The Obama declared a moratorium on nuclear power yet? Suspect
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:49 pm

Actually Obama is a supporter of Nuke Power.
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:12 pm

I may be reading tea leaves, and I am not completely trusting of the mainstream media, but every radio correspondent I have heard from Japan sounds like they are scared sh*tless (missed words, odd locutions, etc.). And these are people who have covered disasters for a long time.

Also, according to the New York Times (which has ran banner headlines about the reactors for two days, which is the kind of coverage given to major battles or elections) the NRC and Russia's equivalent agency both announced that their territories (Siberia and Alaska) are under no danger or fallout. Which is odd, since it has to go either west or east presumably.



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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:14 pm

Tim_Haggerty wrote:
I may be reading tea leaves, and I am not completely trusting of the mainstream media, but every radio correspondent I have heard from Japan sounds like they are scared sh*tless (missed words, odd locutions, etc.). And these are people who have covered disasters for a long time.

Also, according to the New York Times (which has ran banner headlines about the reactors for two days, which is the kind of coverage given to major battles or elections) the NRC and Russia's equivalent agency both announced that their territories (Siberia and Alaska) are under no danger or fallout. Which is odd, since it has to go either west or east presumably.




Probably just drifts out the ozone hole into space. It'll be alright....
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:13 pm

Like this isn't news that anyone interested hasn't been following at WhatReallyHappened, Rense &c. --
Quote :
Fox News is reporting that the fuel rods in ALL three damaged reactors are set to meltdown. This is not fear mongering this is simple fact. The BBC is also reporting that Japanese Officials are in full scale panic mode.
http://theintelhub.com/2011/03/14/possible-full-scale-meltdown-live-updates/

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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:36 am

Keeping these quarantined in the head-case corner of this.

Scaremongering, for sure. But worth considering if this interests you : 27 factoids --
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/27-signs-that-the-nuclear-crisis-in-japan-is-much-worse-than-either-the-mainstream-media-or-the-japanese-government-have-been-telling-us

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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:18 am

Quote :
The European Union's energy commissioner Guenther Oettinger said today that the Japanese nuclear disaster is a lot worse than what Japan is declaring. In fact, he believes it could be an apocalypse:

There is talk of an apocalypse and I think the word is particularly well chosen [...] I hope that it doesn't happen, but we can't rule out that the worst case scenario that [a complete meltdown a la Chernobyl] happens in the next few hours or days.

The European view on the subject is way darker than what the IAEA, the Japan government and most of the United States' media is portraying.

Oettinger said that the situation is "almost completely out of control" and that it's only going to get worse as workers get evacuated. Nuclear emergency experts believe that you can't keep the situation from escalating without enough personnel on site, pointing at the 50 engineers now at the nuclear complex. Spanish radiobiology scientist Eduard Rodríguez-Farré says that Fukushima is like a "slow-motion camera Chernobyl". According to him, the situation is now "running wild."

Yesterday, André-Claude Lacoste, president of France's national organization for nuclear safety, said that the level threat should be 5 and perhaps 6. Today, the French energy agency said that this disaster is only second to Chernobyl and has recommended to raise the alert to 7, the maximum in the nuclear event scale. France has 58 operating reactors, only second to the United States' 104.
http://gizmodo.com/#!5782239/european-officials-japan-nuclear-situation-is-out-of-control
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MisterE
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:46 pm

This scene from Akira Kurosawa´s "Dreams" (1990) seems almost prophetic now.... Awesome movie BTW. One of my alltime favorites.

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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:25 am

Quote :
Independent scientists are warning, contrary to statements from the talking heads on corporate media outlets who say Japan is not Chernobyl, the levels of radioactive material being released in from Japan’s nuclear fallout already rivals Chernobyl Levels.

News of the high levels of radioactive fallout comes at the same time that levels of radiation in US rainwater are being measured at levels 1000′s of times higher than drinking water limits and the EPA has announced radiation has been found in US milk. To make matters worse Japan medical facilities are refusing to treat people unless they have been certified to be free of radiation.

Still corrupt Japan Politicians and US EPA officials continue to tell the public the radiation poses no risk to human life.

And the amount of radioactive fuel at Fukushima dwarfs Chernobyl.
http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/03/30/cesium-fallout-fukushima-rivals-chernobyl-12442/

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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:44 pm

Meanwhile, back at the ranch . . .

Quote :
Monday, April 18, 2011
Nuclear Overseers Are "Fake" Agencies Funded and Controlled by the Nuclear Power Industry


The Christian Science Monitor noted recently:

Just as the BP oil spill one year ago heaped scrutiny on the United State's Minerals Management Service, harshly criticized for lax drilling oversight and cozy ties with the oil industry, the nuclear crisis in Japan is shining a light on that nation's safety practices.

***

[Russian nuclear accident specialist Iouli Andreev, who as director of the Soviet Spetsatom clean-up agency helped in the efforts 25 years ago to clean up Chernobyl ] has also accused the IAEA of being too close with corporations. "This is only a fake organization because every organization which depends on the nuclear industry – and the IAEA depends on the nuclear industry – cannot perform properly."

The U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission is no better.

As nuclear engineer Arnie Gundersen, Duane Peterson (president of VPIRG & coordinator for the campaign to retire Vermont Yankee nuclear plant), investigative reporter Harvey Wasserman and Paul Gallay (executive director of Riverkeeper) point out in a roundtable discussion:

* The NRC won't even begin conducting its earthquake study for Indian Point nuclear power plant in New York until after relicensing is complete in 2013, because the NRC doesn't consider a big earthquake "a serious risk"

* Congressman Markey has said there is a cover up. Specifically, Markey alleges that the head of the NRC told everyone not to write down risks they find from an earthquake greater than 6.0 (the plant was only built to survive a 6.0 earthquake)

* The budget for the NRC comes from the nuclear power companies [just like banks fund the Federal Reserve]

* The NRC is wholly captive to industry

* The NRC has never turned down the request of a nuclear power plant to be relicensed in the United States. Relicensing is solely a paper process; there is no safety review.

* The NRC's assumptions regarding a worst-case accident are ridiculous. For example, the NRC assumes only 1% of the fuel could meltdown, while 70% melted down at Fukushima. The NRC assumes no loss of containment, while there has been a major loss of containment in reactors 1-3 (especially 2) at Fukushima.

* "If there was a free market in energy, nuclear power would be over ... immediately". Nuclear plant owners can't get insurance; they can only operate because the U.S. government provides insurance on the taxpayer dime. The government also granted a ridiculously low cap on liability

* We have 4 reactors in California - 2 at San Onofre 2 at San Luis Obisbo - which are vulnerable to earthquakes and tsunamis.

* No state or federal agency knows who would be in charge in case of an accident at Indian Point. It's like the Keystone Cops.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/04/nuclear-regulators-are-fake-agencies.html

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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:39 am

My take on the subject is that the government is doing what they can in a terrible situation. Goal one is to mitigate the disaster and goal two is mass panic prevention. As an individualist, my thought would certainly be to evacuate ASAP. It is not possible for any government to evacuate a country so they go back to goal #2. Puros Bran and I would probably get our families our pipes and our horses gathered up and get our asses far the hell away before anybody told us to stay calm and in place. Sometimes it's probably in ones own best self interest to use independent judgement and common sense if alternative resources are available.

On Long Island, NY where I live a nuke plant was constructed in the '70's and mothballed upon completion specifically because evacuation of Long Island is not possible. Islands with large populations cannot be easily evacuated because you cannot survive by running away into an ocean. Japan is a very large densely populated island.
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:43 am

Nope.. I would stay Lela from Futurama is HOT!
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed signals: Japan/US   Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:47 pm

Quote :
evacuation of Long Island is not possible.

Liked the place well in 1966, and there were plenty of decent jobs there then as well. But that's why not in a nutshell.

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