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 **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED

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MisterE
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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:13 pm

puros_bran wrote:
So a fast food sin tax is better?

Remember the Dem's ' change you can trust' ?
Remember the Rep's ' back to the constitution' ?

We've got and are still getting exactly what we wanted.

Well perhaps in keeping with the idea of levying a smaller tax over a greater area for greater income, yes. Ain't going to happen because you can argue that food is a necessity whereas tobacco is a choice. Doesn't matter that fast food is equally unhealthy (IMHO), it's simply a more defensable position politically. They're playing to win is all. You can't blame them.

If you're saying the people who got us to this point were those who voted in the current lot of politicians, I can't argue with you there....
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NeroWolfe

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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:14 pm

Calculate the tobacco needed at your rate of smoking for the rest of your life, double it, make your list, check it twice, and start ordering when you can. We probably have a couple of years before we are royally screwed!!!!
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nosenhoj

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PostSubject: **urgent**cCrippling taxes on pipe tobacco proposed   Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:46 pm

sand18f;

I FEEL YOU


"There's a story behind rvery bowl"
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forsooth

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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:27 pm

Taxes on tobacco and other "choices" don't go to the so-called intended target. The collected taxes become a SLUSH FUND to be doled out by politicians, primarily as a power perk. Proof? Look at the humongous tobacco settlement of a few years ago as well as the largess of tobacco taxes already in place. Are they going to their "intended targets?" No. H, No!

IMHO, we have to fight this as an overarching resistance to ANY new taxes. Pipe smokers alone, even if united with one voice, can do very little, especially in one little segment of the tax code. We must vote (as puros_bran indicates) for those who are closest to the Constitution.

I say NO NEW TAXES and decrease the size and scope of the federal govt. per "original intent" of the Founding Fathers.

In my state, a new provision was instituted in the state tax code. Starting next April, if you WANT to pay state tax over and above what is required, you are welcomed to do so using your tax form. The folks who are calling for OTHERS to pay more taxes can put their dollars where their mouth is. (You know they won't!)

(Sorry, I'm currently being treated for "aggravated rant syndrome," and the current inhabitants in Washington aren't helping any!)
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gandalfpc

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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:47 pm

forsooth wrote:
closest to the Constitution.

I say NO NEW TAXES and decrease the size and scope of the federal govt. per "original intent" of the Founding Fathers.

The original intent of the founding fathers was to cover their own asses. It was a matter of letting land owning white men to be free of the king.

Those men then quickly took the place of that king and proffered their own taxes.

Why?

Because as time went on they came to terms with the need for them.

If you desire to live in a world where your family is fine and the giant steel bars around your house keep you safe from the suffering masses - then reduce gov't down to the size where there is no support for those who aren't rich.

No minimum wage, no child labor laws, no need for a hospital to help you - no roads or bridges.

I didn't build this country - you didn't build this country - and as much as you don't like to admit it - taxes built this country.

PB said it all - Pay your share and stop muttering about it - because complaining about how we hate to pay taxes is like complaining to the wife about washing the dishes. Someone has to do it - or they just pile up.

We all want to make the Gov't better - and we all underestimate the difficulty and importance of the job.

We also hire lots of idiots to run things - our fault entirely...

Don't like paying high property tax? Well, move out of that nice town you live in and move out to the sticks, where there are no services and taxes are under 100 bucks a year... Oh, you like that town... Well, fresh out of ideas then...

The founding fathers would sh*t themselves if they were responsible for running the country now - times have changed, industrialization has arrived, cities have risen. Everyone doesn't just go into their backyard to shoot dinner anymore.

Why stick with the founding fathers? Why not go back to the stone-age, when men were truly free...
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forsooth

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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:19 pm

gandalfpc -- Thanks for the reply and your general perspective. Sounds like our completed presidential ballots in November, 2012, will not look at all alike! Very Happy That's what this great country is still all about!
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Dutch

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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:40 pm

My guess is pipe tobacco and cigars enjoyed moderately will never have the same impact on your body as fast food...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Size_Me

My doctor asked me a couple years ago to cut out all fast food and replace with fruits and vegetables, lean meats, and eggs. I have much more energy and still smoke 1 cigar and 2 bowls of pipe tobacco daily.

You will play hell getting fast food taxed because too many people will have to make a personal sacrifice. Ditto tenfold on a fat tax.
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Guy



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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:45 pm

I hate to say it but if any additional taxes are levied against tobacco it will be time for me to quit smoking. Living in NYC you can get a summons and ripped off for smoking. The regrettable thing is I see so many NYC poor forking over $15 for a pack of cigarettes.
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CarterHallJunkie

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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:21 pm

Guy wrote:
Living in NYC you can get a summons and ripped off for smoking.

Really? Do you mean that if you smoke in public - anywhere - this could happen?
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Guy



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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:32 pm

CarterHallJunkie wrote:
Guy wrote:
Living in NYC you can get a summons and ripped off for smoking.

Really? Do you mean that if you smoke in public - anywhere - this could happen?

Yes all public parks and in many public spaces. I have been “at home only pipe smoker” since the early 90’s.
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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:39 pm

Guy wrote:

Yes all public parks and in many public spaces. I have been “at home only pipe smoker” since the early 90’s.

Wow - I was in NYC last year - smoking away (ciggs - before I returned to the pipe)

Who knew?

I feel for you brother.
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Krusty

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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:28 pm

Curiouser and...

Cellaring/Hoarding is called out as a head-in-the-sand reaction that will do good.

Opinions along the lines of put-up-or-shut-up, country built on taxes so pay your fair share etc, pass somewhat unscathed so far.

Fascinating behaviors.
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:39 pm

I was mostly being jaded against the entire system. The futility of bitching about it. The idiocy of thinking any politician or political party will save us (ever heard of a rapist stopping mid stroke and having a change of heart? )

It's really not the amount we pay, it's what we get in return. As crazy as it sounds I'd pay double what I do now if we had a lean mean extremely efficient government.
Don't kid yourself, the majority of highway funds goes into paperwork and kick backs. Same with the 'tobacco money' Same with all of it.
He'll we blow more on crooked elections than most nations GDP.
We collect more in taxes than any other nation in the world and we are broke?? How??

A soldier gets a grand a month bit the underwear he has on cost $700?
We have the safest commercial vehicle operations over the past decade in recorded history and they create a new administration to create stricter laws with more severe punishment?
We spend more administrating the 'welfare system' than we do handing it out to those eligible ? Wtf is that??

I'm not opposed to taxation spent in a common sense frugle manner. I'm also wise enough to know that's not going to happen and that raising your blood pressure bitching about it on a pipe forum doesn't correct anything.

Plus you have to admit. Tobacco tax is a voluntary tax, you don't have to purchase it. I'm not saying it's good, I'm not saying it is ok, I'm saying it's reality.

As for the 'old white guy' comment. It was in many ways a better system. Those that had nothing to lose didn't get a vote, those that had a stake did.
Democracy really is two wolfs and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
As long as people have financial incentive to play class warfare (which is just kore bs politics in many ways) this won't stop.
It's not the unemployeds fault, it's not the rich guys fault, it's not the middle class fault. It is ALL OF OUR fault for allowing tyrants, crooks, scoundrels, and cur dogs to have power over us. Until we as a people (not a sub class, or a special interest) get rid of the cancer bitching about the pain is pointless.
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forsooth

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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:16 am

Well, since this thread started out about Harkins' proposed new federal tax, this is my "summing up.."

1. "Pipe Smokers United Against Federal Tobacco Taxes" (or whatever) is not going to make anything happen, except perhaps a little awareness (which is important).

2. There are enough voters to put national figures (House and Senate) who are absolutely opposed to ANY new federal taxes. We hear "Washington doesn't have a tax problem -- Washington has a spending problem" all the time. It's so true!

3. There are enough voters to put someone in 1600 Penn. Avenue who is against any new Federal taxes AT ALL. The last time I checked, AT ALL includes tobacco.

My greatest concern is that enough folks develop the "well, there's really nothing we can do..." attitude and we become the failed welfare state of Great Britain...or Italy...or Spain...or Greece...
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sand18f

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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:43 am

I don't care if everyone in the entire world quits smoking. I will continue to enjoy my pipe, if for no other reason than you tell me that I can't.


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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:57 am

Just took a quick peek around to see if the admin costs were really that high - does not seem that they are....


On his September 16 show, nationally syndicated radio host Rush Limbaugh repeated his frequent but false claim that administrative costs account for 78 cents of every dollar of welfare spending. Media Matters for America was unable to determine the origin of Limbaugh's wildly inaccurate figure, but Government Accountability Office (GAO) reports reveal that actual costs are far lower, with combined federal and state administrative expenses for most of the welfare programs studied remaining below 20 percent of total expenditures.

A June 30 GAO study reported total federal and state expenditures as well as federal and state administrative costs for several means-tested government programs for FY 2004. Dividing "administrative expenditures" by "total expenditures," Media Matters for America determined that administrative costs for Medicaid -- by far the country's largest means-tested welfare program -- were 4.9 percent of total costs. For the food stamp program, administrative costs were higher: 17.1 percent. Administrative costs were 4.5 percent for the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) and 2.1 percent for the Child Care and Development Fund (CCDF). The report notes that "[t]he specific types of expenditures that are considered administrative differ considerably across the programs."

In addition, the Office of Family Assistance recently reported to Congress that combined federal and state administrative costs for the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) program were 10.3 percent of total expenditures in fiscal year 2002.
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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:38 am

"for the 'old white guy' comment. It was in many ways a better system. Those that had nothing to lose didn't get a vote, those that had a stake did. "


We all have something to lose, in the case of non whites at the time, the laws prevented them from being free - and they had no vote to alter that, or anything else.

The very concept that some deserve a vote and some do not is forgetting that we are each, individually, the ones that the constitution protects - and that we are all equal - rich or poor.

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Guy



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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:32 am

To the original poster or others. Aside from the venting and analysis, which I think we all took part in. If you are closely following this issue, as this is the first I am hearing of it, keep us posted on timeframes and when (or hopefully not) these new taxes are scheduled to pass at the proposed or reduced rates and when they will take effect.
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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:21 am

Gandalf. I haven't listen to rush in about 12 year. And I haven't listened to the news in about 3 months. Totally burned out on the whole delusion.

My sister works for the state. Her job? To find ways to spend money. Literally.

As for administrative cost. Figure up all the payroll hrs, the rent, the vehicles, etc etc. I don't know about any 78 cent on the dollar. But I would bet it's more that 50%.

Like I said earlier I'm not against paying for services. And I don't even mind Big Government. But I want a lean mean extremely efficient government.

My mother used to make underwear for the military in a non profit organization. They charged $700 a set. When Ann Northup ( former Republican Congresswoman out of Louisville KY) was defeated and lost her congressional seat the non profit closed down. That's not efficient, it's not even sane. It's government waste and thievery by the people we put in office.
I don't give a damn what party they belong to, this system has failed us due to the overseers robbing the pot an people letting them for the kickbacks they get in entitlements, tax breaks, etc. Poor guy ain't goin to say anything he gets a check, middle class guy ain't saying anything because he gets credits on his kids and mortars, rich guy doesn't say anything because his corporation beats the system on special loop holes designed just for them.

Anyway, I'm done ranting.
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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:06 am

Gandalf, this quote from your post above says it all really:

"[t]he specific types of expenditures that are considered administrative differ considerably across the programs."


As long as they can make up definitions of terms to suit themselves the numbers will be whatever they want them to be. Don't forget also that Media Matters is just as biased as Rush and co. Being that they are funded in large part by George Soros and the far left, much like Rush being funded by the far right.

When looking at news stories, never fail to consider the source.
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forsooth

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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:15 am

Guy -- My bet is Harkins' proposal will never come up for a vote. As I said before, he is a darling of the Left and this proposal is, IMHO, the type of "I've never seen a tax I didn't like" tax increase sentiment that he, and others like him, often pull out of the swamp to appease their base.
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Guy



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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:36 am

forsooth wrote:
Guy -- My bet is Harkins' proposal will never come up for a vote. As I said before, he is a darling of the Left and this proposal is, IMHO, the type of "I've never seen a tax I didn't like" tax increase sentiment that he, and others like him, often pull out of the swamp to appease their base.

Thank you, good insight, worth keeping an eye on. A realistic up charge from say $2.30 to $5.00 is one thing, an up charge that would make a large tin of Half and Half about a “C-note’ is another matter. affraid
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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:48 am

Vercer wrote:
Gandalf, this quote from your post above says it all really:

"[t]he specific types of expenditures that are considered administrative differ considerably across the programs."


As long as they can make up definitions of terms to suit themselves the numbers will be whatever they want them to be. Don't forget also that Media Matters is just as biased as Rush and co. Being that they are funded in large part by George Soros and the far left, much like Rush being funded by the far right.

When looking at news stories, never fail to consider the source.


Don't be so sure - the GAO accounting practices are quite good - I could spend the time researching the figures, as could any one of us - it is hardly fair to simply claim that all is corrupt and that all numbers are lies.

Saying that welfare admin costs are 80 percent is not accounting - it is a false claim which demonizes the system.

If you want to gut welfare you make such claims - along with those claims that all those on welfare are lazy and would be better off without it.

The truth is that a society is judged by how it treats it's poor, and that we avoid having to say "f@ck the poor, I don't care about them" by claiming they don't exist or that the programs that help them are corrupt wasteful drains on a great society.

When we put a face on welfare it is not the face of an innocent child, it is always the face of the lazy moocher.

Anyone going to bring up tithing?

As for pipe tobacco taxes - they are going up - and up - at least for many blends, as the RYO makers have bundled us in with cigarettes.

Cellar now - or hoard if that's what you like to call it - I call it saving money in the long run.



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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:12 pm

It feels like I mention this every time Federal tobacco legislation is proposed, but here it is again:

Any time you see "tax parity" pitched for tobacco products, the behind-the-scenes villain is Big Tobacco. Premade cigarettes are their biggest and highest-margin business by a longshot, and they are more than willing to sacrifice smokeless, pipe, and RYO to increase their shares in the cig market.

They will do this even if it means quietly backing an increased tax on all tobacco, because they've reached the point where taxes no longer change the purchasing behavior of cigarette smokers in any way that hurts profits. Taxes go up and up, smokers die and quit in some number, but profits are relatively flat.

It's fine to talk about the ideologies and partisan platforms of politicians, but the practical matter of passing tobacco legislation comes down to a large bloc of legislators who will do what Philip Morris tells them to. And pipe smokers matter even less mathematically to the tobacco corporations as customers than we do to the government as voters.

It sucks, but there's not much you can do besides boycott big-brand pipeweed, and convince smokers to quit cigs for the pipe.
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: **URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED   Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:45 pm

FWIW: I'm not saying fudge anyone (except the politicians)
That's class warfare and it must stop if this country has a prayer.

I'm just saying we need to spend what we collect with a bit more wisdom.
If we need more tax more, if we need less tax less.

This Tax, spend, think up more needs, tax sone more, create emergency , tax some more crap that's went on the past 20 years has to stop.
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