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Bub

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PostSubject: Jobs vs Gates   Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:44 pm

We have all been hearing the praise and affection for Steve Jobs since his death.
I am wondering if similar thoughts are felt for Bill Gates.
Visionary and genius are words that I have heard for Jobs and he has certainly changed the way we interact with computers and digital information.
However,he was a tyrant who amassed a large fortune and appeared to have little interest in philanthropy.
Microsoft, on the other hand, has products that more people use but don't feel as passionate about as Apple products.
Gates has also amassed a large fortune but he is actively involved in philanthropy.
Let me ask it this way...whose biography would you want to read?
My pick is Steve Job's
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:20 pm

Jobs Inc painted a real good picture as Gates as THE BAD GUY.

I won't paint a dead man in to bad a light.. but.. A ton of Apple innovation was and is stuff they 'stole' from others too..
Who invented the smartphone? It wasn't Apple.
Who invented the home computer? It wasn't Apple
Who invented tablet computing? It wasn't Apple..
BUT If you listened to their marketing and their fanboys you would believe they did..
Jobs was a brilliant marketeer. Apple releases great products that are big on eyecandy and simplicity.

It's still cool to hate Microsoft.. and by default Bill Gates.
It's an unwarrented hatred. Have they released crap? Sure, but so has Apple, and every other tech company.

As to your question.. Will they be free in iBooks? If so yeah I'll read both of them... LMAO!!!
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Preacher

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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:51 pm

I wouldn't read either. I'm not a fan of Apple. I don't think that Apple invented any of the things that they are credited for. I think that the one true gift of Jobs was that he was one heckuva marketter. I use PC's, but I'm not kissing Gate's butt either. All of these are companies that do what they do for one purpose: to make money. To treat them as anything more is lunacy!
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MisterE
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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:10 pm

I like Bill Gates mostly because he is dedicated to philanthropy. Most of the people with that kind of wealth didn't get there by being "Mr. Nice Guy". I think all willingly had a hand in stealing someone else's efforts at some point in their careers. At least Gates has the conscience to give a little- even if his motive might only be to assuage his guilt. Who knows...
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Boulder

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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:59 pm

MisterE wrote:
I like Bill Gates mostly because he is dedicated to philanthropy. Most of the people with that kind of wealth didn't get there by being "Mr. Nice Guy". I think all willingly had a hand in stealing someone else's efforts at some point in their careers. At least Gates has the conscience to give a little- even if his motive might only be to assuage his guilt. Who knows...


Some would call it Tax write-off's
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:39 am

Hating on your fellow man simply because he is more successful than you??


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MisterE
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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:42 am

No hating here! Very Happy
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:40 am

I was talking to Bolder (pun intended, sorry man but the bold type in every post for the entire post is over the top)

Gates appeared to have a fundamental change in his life outlook after getting out of the corporate world.

AND

Regardless of his motivation he has accomplished a lot of good.
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:53 am

I didn't invent the chicken Cesar salad, but I'm told I make one of the best, including from-scratch dressing. I don't consider myself a "stealer of products."

It's hard to look in the face of a cultural/technological phenomenon, like any Apple products, and leaving criticism at "it wasn't original," or "the founder (Jobs) wasn't philanthropic enough." What we do with our ideas, products and money is our choice, and it might not make us look good in the eyes of political correctness, community or personally, but it's still our choice. Kind of nice we have that option where we live.

At the same time, we can also reap the criticism if we're not doing something.

Yet the public is, buying all of the stuff en masse. I'd say contributions and success are equal in both instances, Jobs/Gates, Apple/PC.

I'd rather read stories about present-day success being made at a start-up level, rather than a biography/autobiography about two dudes who were in the right place at the right time.
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:59 pm

I would counter that the two dudes created the right place and the right time.
Their vision, their innovation, and their hard work has changed the world.
They didn't invent computing but they did make it accessible to you and I.
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Bub

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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:37 pm

Kyle said
Quote :
What we do with our ideas, products and money is our choice, and it might not make us look good in the eyes of political correctness, community or personally, but it's still our choice.

Luke said
Quote :
For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required
.
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thedeep



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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:25 pm

If I recall correctly, Gates did not get into philanthropy until after being assailed, sued, etc...and being called because of his wealth. He was not always so generous. Also, there is a HUGE difference in the amount of wealth these two gentlemen have. Jobs, it appears, is worth about $6-7 billion, Gates..much, much more.
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:07 pm

So the amount of money your hard work, vision, dedication, ability, etc creates is directly related to how 'evil' you are.. Got it.
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:22 pm

puros_bran wrote:
So the amount of money your hard work, vision, dedication, ability, etc creates is directly related to how 'evil' you are.. Got it.

*raises glass* Well then... here's to evil, and the pursuit therein. Twisted Evil
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Harlock999

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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:05 pm

Gates wins by virtue of his ability to do a happy dance on Jobs' grave, if he were so inclined.
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Josjor

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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:44 am

Boy, lots to cover but I'll only make a few observations.

As mentioned already, both of them got to where the are by taking other peoples ideas. But what they did with those ideas is vastly different.

Jobs true gift was in perfecting an idea, polishing it to an incredible level, and simplifying it to be amazingly easy to use. Package it in very pleasing eye candy and market it well enough that you can sell it for over double the competitors price for a similar object. That is the perfection of the traditional "form follows function" idea and I don't believe anyone did it better.

Gates' abilities are more in the traditional corporate structure wherein you buy/borrow/steal/create an idea. Package it in a manner that allows you to sell it at a cost that encourages people to buy it in quantities that make it the most common platform. Then sell all the goods and programs that work on that platform. It is a very classic example of American corporate structure and planning.

If it comes down to judging one of them on creative merit, I would have to give the nod to Jobs. I would give Gates the nod for traditional business management. I have no real desire to read the biography of either one.

Philanthropy? Well, I guess you could argue that Gates gives back more, but I don't know Jobs giving tendencies. Gates has certainly done his best to make sure the public knows he gives away money. But I would also counter that Gates doesn't even notice that the money is gone from his account. It's not like he has to eat beans and weenies tonight because he gave a little more than usual this week.

I don't begrudge anyone making as much money as they would like and can do (as long as it's done legally and ethically........but that's a whole other thread in the case of Jobs and Gates!!!) but don't brag and show off how much money you've given away unless it was enough to cause some sort of hardship for you. And then I would still prefer that you keep it to yourself. As Jesus said about giving, don't let the right hand know what the left hand is doing.

I'm reminded of the story of the widow's mite.
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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:57 am

Guess I would have to be firmly in the camp that both made significant contributions in their own way. Apple was the first to bring to market a computer with built-in keyboard and video interface that could run software that "everyman" could use, rather than just running assembler or Basic programs. When Visicalc came out for the Apple, wow, now there was an application that could really make use of the computer's power for crunching numbers in a way that small company accountants and engineers could make use of. I have always felt that Visicalc made the Apple II the success that it was. Of course MS soon started bringing apps to PC's in the form of MS/PC-DOS and MS-Basic but it wasn't until the advent of Windows and really Windows 3.1 before Microsoft became a big player. In this case, you could argue that without IBM and the PC and all the clones that MS would never have gotten the traction and income from selling DOS that it needed to become the company that it is.

Job's real genius was his product vision and marketing. His insistence on not releasing products that were not "perfect", which in turn allowed Apple to keep product lines simple and only make major updates on an infrequent basis, providing a free development environment, invoking software standards (at least for app store apps), keeping legacy hardware useful and functional for a very long time frame, etc, etc has really given Apple a very unique position in all consumer goods, not just PC's. While they cost more, many Apple users keep their computers for 2 or 3 times the normal lifespan of other brands, making them IMHO sort of the Zippo or Stanley bottle of the PC business.

Regardless, I am sorry that Steve Jobs has passed away and feel the world is poorer after his passing.
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Bub

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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:14 am

In case your are wondering, Luke is an economist in the Obama administration.
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WaydeG

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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:40 am

Kyle Weiss wrote:
I didn't invent the chicken Cesar salad, but I'm told I make one of the best, including from-scratch dressing. I don't consider myself a "stealer of products."

It's hard to look in the face of a cultural/technological phenomenon, like any Apple products, and leaving criticism at "it wasn't original," or "the founder (Jobs) wasn't philanthropic enough." What we do with our ideas, products and money is our choice, and it might not make us look good in the eyes of political correctness, community or personally, but it's still our choice. Kind of nice we have that option where we live.

At the same time, we can also reap the criticism if we're not doing something.

Yet the public is, buying all of the stuff en masse. I'd say contributions and success are equal in both instances, Jobs/Gates, Apple/PC.

I'd rather read stories about present-day success being made at a start-up level, rather than a biography/autobiography about two dudes who were in the right place at the right time.

I invented the chicken caesar salad. Please count how many you've produced over the years and submit a royalty fee of $3.00 per salad..... Smile

I think you can see the benefits that both camps brought to the table and I'm not a fan of either. That being said, there are functions on each platform that are better suited to that platform although that gap is quickly closing. I can appreciate both innovators.



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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:04 am

Hunter5117 wrote:

providing a free development environment.

Umm minus the registration fee? lol



But I am with you, The world is a little darker with his passing.. If for no other reason than his one or two word emails cease..
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:08 pm

WaydeG wrote:


I invented the chicken caesar salad. Please count how many you've produced over the years and submit a royalty fee of $3.00 per salad..... Smile

I think you can see the benefits that both camps brought to the table and I'm not a fan of either. That being said, there are functions on each platform that are better suited to that platform although that gap is quickly closing. I can appreciate both innovators.

...yeah I'm sure you did, and--check's in the mail. Razz Smile Laughing

The world really was better off with both guys doing their thing. Their dichotomy gave us some different products, the ability to square off and take sides (weirdly, humans like doing that) and created an economy and function we'll use for a long time to come.
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WaydeG

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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:37 pm

puros_bran wrote:
Hunter5117 wrote:

providing a free development environment.

Umm minus the registration fee? lol



But I am with you, The world is a little darker with his passing.. If for no other reason than his one or two word emails cease..

Uh, yeah. I sold system level, RTOS and embedded software not to mention device driver software for years. Nobody got a free ride from either camp.
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Hunter5117

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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:21 pm

puros_bran wrote:
Hunter5117 wrote:

providing a free development environment.

Umm minus the registration fee? lol



But I am with you, The world is a little darker with his passing.. If for no other reason than his one or two word emails cease..

Yea I was thinking about that today. Steve got right chatty the past couple of years, might have been his knowledge that the end was near and he wanted to participate in as many ways as possible before the end came.

I have been a registered developer with Apple for quite a few years and have never paid a penny for it. Have full dev access, I just don't get the pre-release versions of iOS etc which I would gladly pay for if I was actively developing.

I guess if you want to get a login to the dev site nowadays you do have to pay the $100 registration fee but considering that also gets you all the beta releases it is certainly worth it. Plus anyone can download the Xcode development kit from the App store for free and develop to their hearts content, when you have the next big thing ready for release, pay then so you can distribute it through the respective app stores.

Sure beats the cost of Visual Studio (which I also used to pay for back when I was also a Microsoft Certified Developer but that has been many years ago).
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Anthony

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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:46 pm

I wouldn't consider myself a subject matter expert on the topic, but I would say I'm educated enough to pronounce a developed opinion.

I view both Gates and Jobs as the types that were at the right place at the right time. Neither were original; however, I do believe that Gates is the lesser of two evils when it comes to what they've actually accomplished. Sure there's a bunch of debate about whether or not Gates actually developed anything himself or hijacked a culmination of other people's accomplishments yadda yadda... But at the same time I'd much rather pay for microsoft/PC parts than an apple, ever. Hands down, no questions asked. The apple mentality is very "have a car in any color you want, as long as it's black". Similar to super modern cars where you can't work on them yourself and need a computer/dyno through the dealer to do anything with it performance wise. For less money, I can build a machine that out performs anything apple could ever touch for half the price. *Plus I get two buttons on the mouse to boot* I totally understand that if you're using the machine for super serious A/V editing&production apple has some programs that do edge out the competition... But besides that.... Most apple owners that I know just have an $1800-$5000 Facebook machine. The one piece of hardware that apple has produced that I commend them for is the ipod. Coming from an audiophile, they really opened a whole new market to digital media (although I do much prefer analog audio, or at least FLAC format when it comes to digits) that I can't help but commend them for. Microsoft though... They've done the most for my line of work with the military/government realms and to be blunt, apple just isn't capable *at this time* of producing equipment that can do what we would need them to do. So that is why I would have to go with Gates vs. Captain Turtleneck.
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Anthony

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PostSubject: Re: Jobs vs Gates   Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:52 pm

Case in point:



The rest are just because I don't care who you are, it's funny.







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