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Kyle Weiss

Kyle Weiss

Location : Reno, NV
Registration date : 2011-09-18

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 28, 2011 3:16 pm

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I seem to find a million uses for the precision file sets. Cool
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dshpipes

dshpipes

Age : 36
Location : Durham, NC
Registration date : 2011-03-06

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 28, 2011 6:39 pm

So I struck out at my local hardware store, which was unfortunate. However, I found a nice set of digital calipers on E-Bay for less than $14 shipped.

If you happen to need a set, the guy's got more: Digital Caliper
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Kyle Weiss

Kyle Weiss

Location : Reno, NV
Registration date : 2011-09-18

Making my First Pipe - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 5:08 am

Good tip. My Harbor Freight model is perfect, but they're probably made in the same factory. Laughing
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dshpipes

dshpipes

Age : 36
Location : Durham, NC
Registration date : 2011-03-06

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 11:44 am

Picked up these guys:

Diamond Files

Also practiced opening two of the prefab stems that I have and that went pretty well. I only ruined one before I remembered that they need to be heated up to be opened. Whoops!

So I have two stems now that are open to 2 mm with an inch on the tenon end drilled to 3 mm. Once I get the files in, I'm going to try tapering the airway. We'll see how that goes. Razz
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tyler



Age : 47
Location : Edmond, OK
Registration date : 2008-02-14

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 11:51 am

Kyle Weiss wrote:


Now--how to get that precise? Look for a VERY precise drill set, use your caliper to go just under the size of the tenon, and that'll be your mortise size. From that point, try narrowing the gauge of the stem tenon (assuming you get a per-fabricated stem) and very carefully decrease the size of the with sandpaper. You could conceivably enlarge the mortise hole, with tiny and precise files, but I had good results keeping the "roundness" true on the stem's tenon by wrapping a piece of 300 grit sandpaper (or 500, less is usually more in this case, if you catch my dift Smile ) and twisting inside the "sandpaper tube" so that there was always equal pressure on the sandpaper.

Most good pipe carvers have a great selection of very precise (down to half a millimeter) drill bits to make this pretty easy, but with a general set, you may have some work ahead of you. Also, a lathe is a good choice for really getting a stem turned by hand rather than a pre-fab, but I believe they still finish them down to the final size by hand (I never got that detailed).

Most pipe makers I know don't really care about "precision" drill bits. They just drill the hole and then turn the tenon to fit. (Delrin is an exception.) I only offer this so you don't spend too much time and money on bits. Really, almost any sharp bit will do. It's the lathe that is most important to many pipe makers. You don't have to have a lathe though. Slow and easy with sandpaper to reduce a tenon to the size of your mortise is very doable. It just takes patience. Constantly check the fit, and you'll dial it in.

Quote :

For us though? We're messin' around, so personally, I'm gonna have fun with it. Cool My pipes will always be filled with whimsy and love of the project!

That's why I do it too! It's fun stuff, isn't it?

Quote :

Go get a caliper tool, digital if you can. They run about $30 usually for cheap ones, but you'll appreciate this for much more than pipes...I've measured everything from sink attachments to glass thickness with 'em! While you're at it, go look for precision files and drill bits in metric. Cool


FWIW, I rarely measure anything, except to stick the stem in the mortise and see if it fits. And too, with calipers, it is exceedingly hard to accurately measure the ID of a hole. You have to "luck into" measuring at the exact widest spot.
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tyler



Age : 47
Location : Edmond, OK
Registration date : 2008-02-14

Making my First Pipe - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 11:53 am

UberHuberMan wrote:
Picked up these guys:

Diamond Files

Also practiced opening two of the prefab stems that I have and that went pretty well. I only ruined one before I remembered that they need to be heated up to be opened. Whoops!

So I have two stems now that are open to 2 mm with an inch on the tenon end drilled to 3 mm. Once I get the files in, I'm going to try tapering the airway. We'll see how that goes. Razz

Opened up? Do you mean making the holes bigger? If so, you shouldn't need to heat them first. What are they made of, acrylic of vulcanite?
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dshpipes

dshpipes

Age : 36
Location : Durham, NC
Registration date : 2011-03-06

Making my First Pipe - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 12:02 pm

tyler wrote:
Opened up? Do you mean making the holes bigger? If so, you shouldn't need to heat them first. What are they made of, acrylic of vulcanite?

Yup! Expanded the holes to 3 mm, tapering to 2 mm at the bit. Rather they will taper once I have those diamond files in hand. Cool

These stems are vulcanite. I didn't think I'd need to warm them either, until I started to open one up and a major crack appeared on both sides of the stem. After I warmed them up with a candle flame(how romantic), they expanded with no problem.

Stem pictures:

Making my First Pipe - Page 2 Stems10
Making my First Pipe - Page 2 Bore10

I'll more than likely be using the tapered stem.
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dshpipes

dshpipes

Age : 36
Location : Durham, NC
Registration date : 2011-03-06

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 12:08 pm

Thanks for chiming in, tyler!

Kyle and I have been going back and forth so much that I didn't even check to see who'd responded.

Thanks for the guidance! As far as drill bits go, I went in hoping to find some gimlets larger than 5 mm so I wouldn't have to concern myself with sanding the tenon so thin, but I suppose I could always sand the mortise wider. Maybe eventually I'll worry about getting a lathe and some nicer tools, but for now I'm just taking a stab at it.

I really appreciate your input here. It's great to know that even the pros "luck into" it. Wink
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tyler



Age : 47
Location : Edmond, OK
Registration date : 2008-02-14

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 12:22 pm

UberHuberMan wrote:
Thanks for chiming in, tyler!

Kyle and I have been going back and forth so much that I didn't even check to see who'd responded.

Thanks for the guidance! As far as drill bits go, I went in hoping to find some gimlets larger than 5 mm so I wouldn't have to concern myself with sanding the tenon so thin, but I suppose I could always sand the mortise wider. Maybe eventually I'll worry about getting a lathe and some nicer tools, but for now I'm just taking a stab at it.

I really appreciate your input here. It's great to know that even the pros "luck into" it. Wink

5 mm is going to be too small for a mortise. 4 mm is usually about how big the air hole is, so that doesn't leave enough room left for a mortise. Most mortises are in the 5/16" range. (sorry, I dont really know metric on these dimensions)

I don't like to "luck into" things, so I don't use calipers to measure ID if I can help it. Honestly, I've never found a need to really. Just stick the stem in. If it fits well, who cares what the numbers are? Very Happy
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tyler



Age : 47
Location : Edmond, OK
Registration date : 2008-02-14

Making my First Pipe - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 12:24 pm

UberHuberMan wrote:
tyler wrote:
Opened up? Do you mean making the holes bigger? If so, you shouldn't need to heat them first. What are they made of, acrylic of vulcanite?

Yup! Expanded the holes to 3 mm, tapering to 2 mm at the bit. Rather they will taper once I have those diamond files in hand. Cool

These stems are vulcanite. I didn't think I'd need to warm them either, until I started to open one up and a major crack appeared on both sides of the stem. After I warmed them up with a candle flame(how romantic), they expanded with no problem.

Stem pictures:

Making my First Pipe - Page 2 Stems10
Making my First Pipe - Page 2 Bore10

I'll more than likely be using the tapered stem.

How are you opening them? By removing material or expanding the hole by force? If by force, you'll need heat, but remember that vulcanite had memory. If heated again, the hole will go back to its original size. Removing material is the normal method, either with drills or files, and no heat is required for those.

EDIT: As I look more closely at the stems, I see the "pooch" of the hole behind the button. It seems you are making that hole larger in diameter. You shouldn't need to do that. I drill 1/16" there, and don't want it any bigger. Airflow is improved there by removing material from the "sides" of the hole. In other words, make a slit. That way you have the effective air flow of a big diameter without need to make a thick stem. I'd recommend heating that area back up and closing that hole back down so it's flat behind the button. Then wait for the files and open that area up on the sides with the files. That said, many preformed stems are actually fairly nice and open. You might not need to do anything to them but fit them in the stummel and start smoking! cheers
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Kyle Weiss

Kyle Weiss

Location : Reno, NV
Registration date : 2011-09-18

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 2:56 pm

I'm glad someone else is joining in on this...Laughing I think 5mm is too small, as well. If there's a lot of tightening and swelling while in use, and you manage to twist it right, the thing may snap at the tenon shoulder and leave you with a frustrating situation.

The nice thing about having precision in measuring the mortise and tenon is if you have to work within specific parameters...such as if your pipe has a particularly thin shank and you don't want the walls to be too thin, there's probably some wisdom in not exceeding a certain size mortise/tenon joint. Plus, calipers are handy if you have a pipe you really like the draw on, stem fit, bowl size, etc., you can do better than "luck" to try and re-create it this way.

Otherwise, if luck is workin' for ya, then luck it is. Cool
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tyler



Age : 47
Location : Edmond, OK
Registration date : 2008-02-14

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 5:27 pm

Kyle Weiss wrote:
I'm glad someone else is joining in on this...Laughing I think 5mm is too small, as well. If there's a lot of tightening and swelling while in use, and you manage to twist it right, the thing may snap at the tenon shoulder and leave you with a frustrating situation.

The nice thing about having precision in measuring the mortise and tenon is if you have to work within specific parameters...such as if your pipe has a particularly thin shank and you don't want the walls to be too thin, there's probably some wisdom in not exceeding a certain size mortise/tenon joint. Plus, calipers are handy if you have a pipe you really like the draw on, stem fit, bowl size, etc., you can do better than "luck" to try and re-create it this way.

Otherwise, if luck is workin' for ya, then luck it is. Cool

Let me disclaim my thoughts with the fact that I am not a plan-your-work, work-your-plan sort of guy. I'm more of a work-and-adjust sort of of guy. jocolor

On the calipers, my point seems to be missed: if you are using a caliper to measure the mortise ID, your doing it the "luck" way. Calipers are not good for measuring ID.

As for too thin walls, I think eye balls measure that as well as calipers. And too, when it comes to draw and stem fit, etc., the challenge is you can't measure all the places that need to be measured to determin the "magic" dimensions. The work inside the stem is critical, but you can measure it with calipers. Heck, you can't even see it that well, if at all. You have to develop a feel for it, and regularly stick the thing in your mouth and test it...yep! that's the draw I want on it. Let's talk about comfort in the mouth, what dimensions should the bit be? Well, how long is the pipe and how heavy is the bowl? What material is the stem? This can affect how wide I want the bit and perhaps how thin.

IOW, there's a lot of art to the process, not just science.

I'm not discounting measurement entirely, I'm just suggesting that it isn't always a critical part of the process. I think maybe it might be personality driven though? I know Brad Pohlman measures EVERYTHING to a bajillionth of an inch. I make a lot of pipes without measuring a thing. Different strokes, I guess.

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dshpipes

dshpipes

Age : 36
Location : Durham, NC
Registration date : 2011-03-06

Making my First Pipe - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 5:40 pm

tyler wrote:
How are you opening them? By removing material or expanding the hole by force? If by force, you'll need heat, but remember that vulcanite had memory. If heated again, the hole will go back to its original size. Removing material is the normal method, either with drills or files, and no heat is required for those.

Initially, I was trying to expand the hole by removing material with a gimlet, but the first stem I tried that on cracked. I'm not sure if I was doing something wrong, but aside from slowing down I'm not sure what to change. Would a power tool cause the same issue?

tyler wrote:
EDIT: As I look more closely at the stems, I see the "pooch" of the hole behind the button. It seems you are making that hole larger in diameter. You shouldn't need to do that. I drill 1/16" there, and don't want it any bigger. Airflow is improved there by removing material from the "sides" of the hole. In other words, make a slit. That way you have the effective air flow of a big diameter without need to make a thick stem. I'd recommend heating that area back up and closing that hole back down so it's flat behind the button. Then wait for the files and open that area up on the sides with the files. That said, many preformed stems are actually fairly nice and open. You might not need to do anything to them but fit them in the stummel and start smoking! cheers

See, look at me making more work for myself. Embarassed

I'll be taking your suggestion here. Thanks for helping me make this easier!
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dshpipes

dshpipes

Age : 36
Location : Durham, NC
Registration date : 2011-03-06

Making my First Pipe - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 5:47 pm

tyler wrote:
Kyle Weiss wrote:
I'm glad someone else is joining in on this...Laughing I think 5mm is too small, as well. If there's a lot of tightening and swelling while in use, and you manage to twist it right, the thing may snap at the tenon shoulder and leave you with a frustrating situation.

The nice thing about having precision in measuring the mortise and tenon is if you have to work within specific parameters...such as if your pipe has a particularly thin shank and you don't want the walls to be too thin, there's probably some wisdom in not exceeding a certain size mortise/tenon joint. Plus, calipers are handy if you have a pipe you really like the draw on, stem fit, bowl size, etc., you can do better than "luck" to try and re-create it this way.

Otherwise, if luck is workin' for ya, then luck it is. Cool

Let me disclaim my thoughts with the fact that I am not a plan-your-work, work-your-plan sort of guy. I'm more of a work-and-adjust sort of of guy. jocolor

On the calipers, my point seems to be missed: if you are using a caliper to measure the mortise ID, your doing it the "luck" way. Calipers are not good for measuring ID.

As for too thin walls, I think eye balls measure that as well as calipers. And too, when it comes to draw and stem fit, etc., the challenge is you can't measure all the places that need to be measured to determin the "magic" dimensions. The work inside the stem is critical, but you can measure it with calipers. Heck, you can't even see it that well, if at all. You have to develop a feel for it, and regularly stick the thing in your mouth and test it...yep! that's the draw I want on it. Let's talk about comfort in the mouth, what dimensions should the bit be? Well, how long is the pipe and how heavy is the bowl? What material is the stem? This can affect how wide I want the bit and perhaps how thin.

IOW, there's a lot of art to the process, not just science.

I'm not discounting measurement entirely, I'm just suggesting that it isn't always a critical part of the process. I think maybe it might be personality driven though? I know Brad Pohlman measures EVERYTHING to a bajillionth of an inch. I make a lot of pipes without measuring a thing. Different strokes, I guess.

I completely agree with both of you guys. 5 mm is way too thin a mortise. I'm just going to sand it open past 5 mm unless I can find a 6 or 7 mm gimlet in the mean time.

I personally like the idea of not measuring everything to the nth degree. It makes sense that there may be some things that need to be measured very accurately, but creating something that is beautiful to the eye and highly functional without extreme measurements is a different skill set which I value a lot and hope I have. Science can be beautiful but art is innate.


Last edited by UberHuberMan on Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tyler



Age : 47
Location : Edmond, OK
Registration date : 2008-02-14

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 5:51 pm

Glad to help. I was where you are about the years back (dang! Where'd to time go?). I know how overwhelming (but fun) it is to figure all of this out. I enjoy helping out where I can, and where I can in the pipe world is usually with pipe making. This is fun to me.

My fear is I'll become annoying. I usualy jump in if i think the easiest way to do something hasnt yet been offered. If the best advice i could offer is already posted, i dont see a need to say anything. So when i do jump in it is usually with a slightly different view than has been proposed. The result of this is that most of the comments i make then are in slight disagreement with earlier posts. I fear it makes me come across as antagonistic. I hope thats not true, but i sometimes fear it to be. I've done a little gentle disagreeing in this thread because I think it's easy to get too complicated with your pipe making. Like I said earlier though, easy to me might be hard to you and vice versa. It could be I'm crazy. geek
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tyler



Age : 47
Location : Edmond, OK
Registration date : 2008-02-14

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 5:56 pm

UberHuberMan wrote:


Initially, I was trying to expand the hole by removing material with a gimlet, but the first stem I tried that on cracked. I'm not sure if I was doing something wrong, but aside from slowing down I'm not sure what to change. Would a power tool cause the same issue?


Well, it could be that you just took away too much material. There's not enough material left in most stems at the button to be making the through-hole bigger.
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dshpipes

dshpipes

Age : 36
Location : Durham, NC
Registration date : 2011-03-06

Making my First Pipe - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 6:06 pm

tyler wrote:
UberHuberMan wrote:


Initially, I was trying to expand the hole by removing material with a gimlet, but the first stem I tried that on cracked. I'm not sure if I was doing something wrong, but aside from slowing down I'm not sure what to change. Would a power tool cause the same issue?


Well, it could be that you just took away too much material. There's not enough material left in most stems at the button to be making the through-hole bigger.

Making my First Pipe - Page 2 Light-10
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dshpipes

dshpipes

Age : 36
Location : Durham, NC
Registration date : 2011-03-06

Making my First Pipe - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 6:07 pm

tyler wrote:
Glad to help. I was where you are about the years back (dang! Where'd to time go?). I know how overwhelming (but fun) it is to figure all of this out. I enjoy helping out where I can, and where I can in the pipe world is usually with pipe making. This is fun to me.

My fear is I'll become annoying. I usualy jump in if i think the easiest way to do something hasnt yet been offered. If the best advice i could offer is already posted, i dont see a need to say anything. So when i do jump in it is usually with a slightly different view than has been proposed. The result of this is that most of the comments i make then are in slight disagreement with earlier posts. I fear it makes me come across as antagonistic. I hope thats not true, but i sometimes fear it to be. I've done a little gentle disagreeing in this thread because I think it's easy to get too complicated with your pipe making. Like I said earlier though, easy to me might be hard to you and vice versa. It could be I'm crazy. geek

Not annoying at all! If anything you're being extremely helpful. cheers
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kurthuhn



Age : 48
Location : Western RI
Registration date : 2007-12-17

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 6:59 pm

One thing to keep in mind is that premold stems have all kinds of horribleness in the airways. There's molding flash, as well as a garbage slot. Add to that the propensity to crack when you're trying to redrill the airway....

Anyway, what I typically do is open up the airway with either a 9/64" or 5/32" drill bit chucked in my lathe (but drill press will do, or hand held drill even) depending on how much the stem can take (the first one is typically sacrificed determining this), then use a dremel with a 1mm drill bit chucked in it to clean up and widen the slot. It's basically the same cleanup operation that you have to do when hand cutting a stem from rod stock.
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tyler



Age : 47
Location : Edmond, OK
Registration date : 2008-02-14

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 7:27 pm

kurthuhn wrote:
One thing to keep in mind is that premold stems have all kinds of horribleness in the airways. There's molding flash, as well as a garbage slot. Add to that the propensity to crack when you're trying to redrill the airway....

Anyway, what I typically do is open up the airway with either a 9/64" or 5/32" drill bit chucked in my lathe (but drill press will do, or hand held drill even) depending on how much the stem can take (the first one is typically sacrificed determining this), then use a dremel with a 1mm drill bit chucked in it to clean up and widen the slot. It's basically the same cleanup operation that you have to do when hand cutting a stem from rod stock.

Open it all the way through to 5/32"? Not even a taper?
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dshpipes

dshpipes

Age : 36
Location : Durham, NC
Registration date : 2011-03-06

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 7:30 pm

kurthuhn wrote:
One thing to keep in mind is that premold stems have all kinds of horribleness in the airways. There's molding flash, as well as a garbage slot. Add to that the propensity to crack when you're trying to redrill the airway....

Anyway, what I typically do is open up the airway with either a 9/64" or 5/32" drill bit chucked in my lathe (but drill press will do, or hand held drill even) depending on how much the stem can take (the first one is typically sacrificed determining this), then use a dremel with a 1mm drill bit chucked in it to clean up and widen the slot. It's basically the same cleanup operation that you have to do when hand cutting a stem from rod stock.

Thanks for chiming in, Kurt! This is great info.

Sounds like I need to get a 1 mm bit to chuck into my dremel. I have a feeling that I'll be using my dremel a lot.

Questions:

1.
tyler wrote:
Open it all the way through to 5/32"? Not even a taper?
2. What is molding flash and garbage slot? I assume garbage slot is simply a crappy slot, but hey, you never know.
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tyler



Age : 47
Location : Edmond, OK
Registration date : 2008-02-14

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 7:41 pm

UberHuberMan wrote:

2. What is molding flash and garbage slot? I assume garbage slot is simply a crappy slot, but hey, you never know.

See how there is a rough ridge on the outside of the stem that is where the rubber oozed into the seam in the mold? Thats molding flash. (You'll want to sand that off eventually.) Kurt is saying you have to watch out for that on the inside of the stem too. You want as clean a flow-path as possible for the smoke, so filing that out would be preferable.
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kurthuhn



Age : 48
Location : Western RI
Registration date : 2007-12-17

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 8:12 pm

tyler wrote:
Open it all the way through to 5/32"? Not even a taper?

I call it the 12 gauge airway. Very Happy

No, sorry. I use a tapered drill bit on those suckers. Otherwise there wouldn't be anything left of the button end of the stem. Wink
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Kyle Weiss

Kyle Weiss

Location : Reno, NV
Registration date : 2011-09-18

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 8:15 pm

Opening up an airway, tools I've used successfully, both against foreign matter blockage, excessive buildup and that excess flash in crappy molded stems:

* Trusty micro/precision files.

* Wound bass guitar string(s). Flexible, just enough "roughness" to clean out most irritations. "A" and "G" being the easiest to use. A little back-and-forth flossing action sometimes is all you need. Works great on bent stems in a pinch.

Cool
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kurthuhn



Age : 48
Location : Western RI
Registration date : 2007-12-17

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PostSubject: Re: Making my First Pipe   Making my First Pipe - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 29, 2011 8:16 pm

tyler wrote:
UberHuberMan wrote:

2. What is molding flash and garbage slot? I assume garbage slot is simply a crappy slot, but hey, you never know.

See how there is a rough ridge on the outside of the stem that is where the rubber oozed into the seam in the mold? Thats molding flash. (You'll want to sand that off eventually.) Kurt is saying you have to watch out for that on the inside of the stem too. You want as clean a flow-path as possible for the smoke, so filing that out would be preferable.

Roger all that.

Also, the slot tends to be a sudden change from the airway to a square or semi-circle slot shape (when viewed from the top). You need to smooth that transition with the 1mm drill bit, using it to sort of "smear" the sides of the slot. You could probably do this with micro files, but it take about 20 seconds with the dremel.
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Brothers of Briar :: Pipes & Tobacco :: DIY-
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