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puros_bran
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Location : Brandenburg, Ky
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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:55 pm

Didn't read cliff notes version... Kyle is a sheep.
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Kyle Weiss

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Location : Reno, NV
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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:57 pm

Mmmm...mutton.

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tgwilt



Age : 64
Location : Kissimmee, Florida
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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:58 pm

Kyle's post makes a lot of sense. Ignore it at your peril!
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:20 pm

ROFLMAO!!!! Don't encourage the idgit.

Kyle post makes sense if it had any fact,technical or otherwise, in it. Sadly the Rockboy is incorrect regardless of my best efforts to educate him.
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sstodvictory

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Age : 64
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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:38 pm

Yak wrote:
There are some mental gymnastics involved in viewing the matter at issue as a contract that involves a phone.
Yak, I can just picture your brain squirming like a toad with that. Smile

Steve

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Kyle Weiss

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Location : Reno, NV
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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:08 pm

puros_bran wrote:
ROFLMAO!!!! Don't encourage the idgit.

Kyle post makes sense if it had any fact,technical or otherwise, in it. Sadly the Rockboy is incorrect regardless of my best efforts to educate him.

You didn't even read it! Laughing

I'm incorrect merely by posting; I know what's going on here, Pinkstick. I love you

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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:35 pm

I did read it.. unfortunately I can never get the time back required to do so...

I don't get why you can't understand the simple math and insist it's some type of trickery.

The Europeans pay it...
The Japanese pay it..
The Arabs pay it..
The Chinese copy it and pay 1/3..
We pay it via contractual obligation..

Everybody is paying for the phone.. A new iPhone is about $700. It's not trickery, or imaginary ink pricing, it is what it is.. It's not doubled up or halved down or any other such ..

The only thing you got right is the stupidity of buying a phone you can only use on certain networks and signing contracts that prohibit it.. That's why alot of people go prepaid. And again I'll tell you it's far wider spread than you imagine..

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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:42 pm

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Kyle Weiss

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Location : Reno, NV
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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:00 pm

...fine, PeeB, you're a cat, and you won't tapdance. I get it. That article was stupid, by the way, and says nothing about people paying $700 all day long for brand-new phones in the USA (not Japan, Ethiopia, or Lichtenstein, or where ever else you can try and take the focus off the USA-themed point I'm making). I know you didn't read what I wrote, 'cuz I know you're smart enough to have understood it if you did.

A new iPhone's (or any other new phone's) price tag is a liquid, ever-changing thing, and $700, even if you link an eBay sold link, not the rock-solid price people pay for it. No other goods have such a flexible price, maybe except tablets and computers. It's a suggested release value, MSRP, it's tied up as a stop-gap for loss in contracts, and quite honestly, no one knows what they are "worth." There's a reason: the cell companies have already taken a loss because of future obsolescence depreciation.

I'll put my gathered knowledge against stupid links any day. Observation is better than "Internet proof," which is why I take Yak's links with a grain of salt, too. Laughing
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:31 pm

Your pitting your ignorance against fact in this Instance.

And iPhone pricing is the most static of any. Look it up on Amazon.. or whatever source you trust..

All those folk on T-Mobile with Iphones? non subsidy iPhone's? I suppose they magically appeared.. All the folk on Straighttalk with Iphones.. magically appeared again? The Boost iPhone's.. again just magically appeared? Ok Kyle you win.. and we are all a bit ducking stupider for it...

its all a conspiracy by the aliens or whatever stupid shit Kyle is yammering about.
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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:30 pm

That Kylepost was incindiary brilliance.

PeeB's Contract's on the ropes . . .

What a Face
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dshpipes

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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:18 pm

Sheeeeeeeesh. Are we all saying the same thing over and over and over and over again? It seems that we are.

Me & Peeb: The phone costs $700 at full retail unless you sign a contract which subsidizes the price, thereby allowing someone to pay significantly less for it. Look it up. The facts support this.

Kyle & Yak: The phone doesn't cost $700 because people aren't used to paying that and in our opinion the market wouldn't bare it.

Am I summarizing correctly? This is what I'm hearing.

A new Mercedes does not cost $3,000 because that's what you pay at signing and it is definitely worth less than you agreed to pay for it over however long by the time you pay it off or sell it. It's worth less than that the moment you drive it off the lot.

Just about everything loses value over time. A car, a coffee mug, books, speakers, computers, beds, briefcases, chairs, bikes, furniture, televisions, tools, toys, airplanes, boats, watches... I mean everything. Why, in the case of cell phones, does their depreciation mean that the phone doesn't cost $700 now?

Kyle, do you have anything factual to back you up? Unless I missed it, I've heard only conclusions based upon casual observation which have been influenced by personal opinion. No facts. Help me out here, bud. Currently I feel like we're all standing outside, Peeb and I are pointing at the sky in the middle of the day and saying, "See? The sky is blue," and we're hearing you say(without glancing up), "Based on my knowledge of the world and a sunset I saw once, I can tell you that you are wrong. The sky is a brilliant orange/red."
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tgwilt



Age : 64
Location : Kissimmee, Florida
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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:18 am

As this tempest in a teapot continues, I have to ask this:

After all the posturing, breast beating, self-flagellation, and hair pulling

What does it matter?
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Kyle Weiss

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Location : Reno, NV
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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:04 am

Can't a man troll in peace? Geez! Laughing I honestly think the whole thing is stupidly funny, outlining why I like hanging out with you guys digitally.

Weirdly, I've noticed when someone cites just facts, those following along (or trying to) almost immediately want something else, like what the speaker/writer personally thinks. When a presenter only says what they think, those reading/listening suddenly want specific facts. In an ideal world, I guess we'd all have precise fifty-fifty content each and every time. Ye fickle apes. Laughing

Though I have to say, "facts" are just someone's observations that happen to get written down, and the more nods it gets, the more "fact" it is. Yet referencing silly links on the Internet is all the "fact" most people need, aliens, cell phone prices in Thailand, or news. You know, technically, the sky really isn't blue at all, nor is the sunset you see brilliant reds, purples or yellows. Perception is a funny thing.

The only facts I know and trust are that which I lay eyes and mind upon. This stems from people not being able to prove anything, as with the whole "facts" thing a few sentences earlier. People do a good job convincing other people about things, but it still doesn't make it real, it just means people are okay with getting along where needed. It's a survival tool, after all. We just get stuff, or we don't.

If you must know, I come from a decade-plus background working with computers, peripherals, software and networking. Technology has a life span, designed obsolescence, cost, sale and depreciation that's unlike anything, service or goods, that's come before it. It's moving economically and design-wise faster than the economy it lives in, and even conventional thinking and business, can keep up with...until the last five or ten years. That's why a $700 cell phone isn't a $700 cell phone, and the contract takes advantage of that. Go back and re-read the car/cell phone comparison, one which is a "new era" invention/modern tool, the other has been around (and developed) for over 100 years in its own unique way.

I don't generally think based solely on information picked up from who-knows-where (call me skeptical), but I do believe I'm intelligent enough to make fantastically accurate educated guesses to how things work. If it helps, feel comfortable in the fact you're reading all this dreck from a bona-fide high school dropout, former street kid, current nut-job or whatever facilitates an easy way to get back to normalcy. I'm a permanent resident where most are tourists. Smile Someone's gotta be here, I suppose.

Meh, it's all just fun. I mean, this is a serious poise and weird brain-training (I suppose) with no expected outcome. None of this matters, it's just the Internet. Join the circus or watch from the stands, but we're all clowns here, Brothers. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:19 am

Quote :
Go back and re-read the car/cell phone comparison, one which is a "new era" invention/modern tool, the other has been around (and developed) for over 100 years in its own unique way.

And re-think it while you're at it. The big car companies made tons of money. And the "aftermarket" that sprung up about 15 minutes later made tons of money. There was something in it for everybody who had something to offer that somebody else wanted. Cars were (and are) an economic artesian well.

Hell, Alfred Dunhill started as a source of expensive "motoring" peripherals -- "windproof" pipes (so that Hizzoner could smoke while he tooled along at 15 m.p.h.) being one of them.

Compare that with Microsoft. Which, about the time everybody and his brother was coming out with some great new app. that ran on one, switched its source code (on which it had a legally-enforceable monopoly), sinking hundreds of startups. And blessing the world with the legendary quality of Microsoftware ever since.

It's EXACTLY comparable to the concept of Colt having (conjecturally) had a patent monopoly on .45 cal. revolver cartridges (or .45 ACPs) and to today's desktop printers legally requiring that only their own ridiculously gouging-level overpriced toner cartridges be used in them. And the "Hey -- you signed the CONTRACT" rationalisation holds just about as much water. When a printer or a telephone gets turned into an economic booby trap by the fine print in the "sales agreement," there is a fundamental violation of the set of reasonable expectations that have grown up among actual people around gizmos like that in general. It's an attempt to impose ironclad corporate ownership of peoples' fundamental sense of the perquisites of ownership, evolved over centuries, and re-shape that along lines calculated to generate maximum possible revenue, using the governmental gun to do it. (Replacing Common Law limits and expectations -- most certainly those formerly unenforceable as "Uncionscienceable Contracts" -- with those of Admiralty Law/the Uniform Commercial Code that every Federal power grabbing usurpation is based on).

"Hey Buddy -- that's not YOUR cell phone. We don't care whether you bought it or not. That's OUR cell phone that you're only renting from us. Read the fine print, Serf. Same way as you're only renting that house & yard you think you "own" (how quaint !) from us. Don't think so ? Miss a couple tax payments on it and we come and take it back."

Welcome to 1984 + 29. And don't be wondering how we got here when you're looking at one example of it in action and rooting for the bad guys who are re-defining your role in the drama of life by re-writing the script.

What a Face
POPULIST AGITATOR


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Kyle Weiss

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Location : Reno, NV
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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:20 pm

You're right, Yak, the Colt example is much more direct, but the car/sales fiction I spliced together as an example for cell phone sales having more similar layers to auto sales that could be understood (at least I thought Laughing ) by others.

Software is the same way, the only person that owns the software are the software developers and companies who employ them. So many people gloss over the "EULA" or stickers that say, "If you install this software, you're subject to ____________ ." If the company ever demanded their software back (which they never would...but if...) you are legally responsible to return their property. If you don't, and get caught with it, you're in possession of stolen goods.

The main point with the car/cell I dramatized was two consumer goods with two similar avenues, either one could be templated over one another with little change. There's a government-controlled infrastructure that's being used, companies in control of the sales, distribution, prices and repairs, it being an "every-day item," both items being almost instant revolutionary life-changers within a short period of time, and both usually requiring some kind of contract to purchase, and a different process to purchase them outright.

The main difference is (US) cars were made in a time when things were made here, and have taken 100+ years to develop into what they are today, as are the roads and even the way we buy them. If cars were suddenly sold like cell phones, and cell phones like cars, there'd be instant collapse: and people know that. Economies are like religions and governments, they all take "control" (for better or worse) over time, because something that big can't change overnight, so it evolves into its own beast. The cell phone craze, even above and beyond Mickeysoft Inc, has the power to do quite a bit, and the carrot on the stick is the newer, bigger, faster thing (whatever that is). It changes so fast and so frequently people are dazzled by it, as if some legitimate inventor is actually making the world better...but all he's doing is selling useless gimmick. People don't care, they just want what others want, to keep up with each other, and pay as little as possible. They don't have time for other silly things.

The car/cell scenario was a 45 minute as-I-type half-baked comparison, I put a disclaimer above it for a reason. It was a blast to write though, I love doing things like that. It's fun. (...and it wasn't meant to be incendiary, but I can see how it was cheeky...I was just toying with words...)

Cool

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KevinM



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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:54 pm

Pricing strategy is an interesting thing, and consumers should probe for the deal that confers on them the best cost/benefit. The best deal is seldom the first one offered. As I mentioned somewhere above, I got my iPhone4 for free and psid for the contract. My missus scoffed, because she bought the new iPhone, the one with the female voice that will tell you where nearby restaurants are. At the time we bought, the pr campaign was using the notion that the newest iPhone was the better buy because of the "new technology." Well, new and amazing or not, we haven't used her restaurant hunting software at all. Don't expect to, either. Consumers need to keep their wits about them, and sellers, when pushed, will generally offer a sweeter deal than lose a sale, even though their instinct is to get you drunk (or at least confused) and try to have their way with you.
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:05 pm

Costco makes their money on memberships, after all. Smile
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dshpipes

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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:19 pm

*sigh* Well, it looks like we'll have to agree to disagree here. We've all made our points and very clearly and been unsuccessful at swaying each other.

Fun debate though!
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Smartphone News   Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:24 pm

Fun was the end goal. At least for me. Laughing Swaying people is superfluous, but it's a serious thing these days with some. Not-the-destination-but-the-journey, etc (people miss that a lot...sad). Hanging out and talkin' with BoB-minds is most excellent served up any style.

Cool
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