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Vito

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PostSubject: Drones   Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:48 pm

The first article linked below includes a map that shows all the U.S. locations for which the FAA has approved drones to be used outside of strictly military airspaces.
I understand the pros and cons of the drones issue. They're great tools to have if you need them for genuine public safety and security purposes, but the potential for abuse is enormous.

jocolor
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kaiser83

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:01 pm

I can give you hundreds of pros for the use of drones domestically. Realistically to actually look at a house a warrant will eventually be required. I expect things like car chases and such will be allowed so that police can back off and the perp can just go home, where the drone can lead police straight to their door. I expect this thread will eventually go the way of the RR, but that is purely dependent on how many people know anything about drones besides speculation and their own personal worries.
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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:57 pm

kaiser83 wrote:
I can give you hundreds of pros for the use of drones domestically. Realistically to actually look at a house a warrant will eventually be required. I expect things like car chases and such will be allowed so that police can back off and the perp can just go home, where the drone can lead police straight to their door. I expect this thread will eventually go the way of the RR, but that is purely dependent on how many people know anything about drones besides speculation and their own personal worries.

Interesting

Here was one stated objective for Arlington, as you indicated

General Location of Drone Activity: Arlington, TX

Stated objective/purpose of COA: The Arlington Texas Police Department (APD) has established a small unmanned aircraft system program (the Program) to assist in its law enforcement mission. This initial COA application is for the limited purposes of training and evaluating the Leptron Avenger (the aircraft), a sUAS equipped with a camera system that provides real-time video for use by incident command. Once the APD has completed its training and evaluation of the aircraft, it is our intention to file for an E-COA or a broader COA to use the aircraft to provide situation awareness within specific dedicated law enforcement missions in defined geographic areas. Such missions may include critical incident surveillance, search and rescue, forensic photographs and videography at police-secured locations, and assistance in intelligence gathering for narcotic missions. The aircraft will not be utilized for routine patrol
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Puff Daddy
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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:38 pm

There are already cameras everywhere. Street corners, in almost every public market or store, why would one in an aircraft be more of a concern than those? I see the positives as Kaiser pointed out. I'd think the true negatives are armed drones (eventually) maintaining a constant threat over a population as a means of governmental enforcement and control. Armed soldiers in the steeets? Can you imagine the uproar? No need, we'll use the drones.

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DrT999

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:49 pm

Puff Daddy wrote:
There are already cameras everywhere. Street corners, in almost every public market or store, why would one in an aircraft be more of a concern than those?

Well, at the least, the cameras have a far less potential to crash. . . .
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alfredo_buscatti

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:44 pm

Gold rules; always has, always will. Information is power; do you really think the Golden will hesitate to use their gold to become more powerful still, and most notably further entrench their power? They're not so much evil as they are greedy. These horrid things will absolutely be abused.

A coworker who favors conspiracy theory told me about this, and I dismissed it.

I think this is a very bad thing that will inevitably bring much suffering. One of the links above shows the deployment of these things. They are thick above our country.
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:44 pm

alfredo_buscatti wrote:
Gold rules; always has, always will.
Well...then I guess that's that. "Always" is pretty final. No possibility of any other outcome. Wow.

Do you really believe that, Mike? How can you reconcile that with your other, wiser beliefs? You're essentially saying that all the power is in those whose greatest desire is for material things. I know that you know better than that.

alfredo_buscatti wrote:
Information is power...
...er, wait. I thought you just said it was "gold". Which is it?

"Information" is that which provides the answer to a question. "Power" is control over action. Like information, it is neither good nor bad. There is nothing wrong with power when you use it to control your own actions. When you use it to control others' actions against their will, then it's something else: coercion. Call it what it is, not what it isn't, or you're going to end up very confused.

alfredo_buscatti wrote:
...the Golden will...use their gold to become more powerful still, and most notably further entrench their power...They're not so much evil as they are greedy.
That's the textbook party line sold by Mr. Marx and his drones. It's a superficial analysis. As long as you commit yourself to that perspective, there is no possibility of any outcome other than violent conflict. I don't think that's really what you want, but if you insist on it, you'll get it in spades, my friend. Those who live by the sword...etc. You know I'm not threatening you. It's a natural principle: The law of karma, you reap what you sow, what you send out comes back to you... etc.

alfredo_buscatti wrote:
A coworker who favors conspiracy theory told me about this...
Did your conspiratorial coworker happen to mention a solution? I mean, one that doesn't involve violent overthrow of the existing system, or seizing property that isn't his. I'll bet he didn't.

We've discussed this before. Those who advocate such a violent approach call it "revolution", but there is nothing revolutionary about it. No

jocolor
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Slartibartfast

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:19 am


"Wonder weapons? My God, I don't see the wonder in them. Killing without heroics. Nothing is glorified, nothing is reaffirmed. No heroes, no cowards, no troops. No generals. Only those that are left alive and those that are left... dead."



Suspect Suspect Suspect
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Gumball

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:39 am

This is just another step towards the creation of the Panopticon ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon )

"The concept of the design is to allow a watchman to observe (-opticon) all (pan-) inmates of an institution without them being able to tell whether or not they are being watched."

I do not subscribe to the 'if you are not doing anything wrong you have nothing to hide' point of view, because looking around it seems obvious that to those in power everyone else is a potential criminal.

We already have police in the UK using thermal imaging cameras to check houses for 'suspicious' heat signatures...looking for indoor drug growing but with the somewhat hilarious result that they raided (on no other evidence) a woman's shed and nearly frightened her poor hamsters to death Rolling Eyes

It has got to the stage here where just by asserting your right to privacy you become suspicious in the eyes of authority.

Imagine, if you will, a ban on smoking in ALL 'public' spaces. This extends to your own garden (as your nasty second hand smoke could waft in to the neighbours property'. Those drones will be used to enforce such a law. A few years ago this would seem fanciful...but now it seems all too likely.

When do WE get our own drones to spy on the private lives of politicians, police chiefs, military generals etc?
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Rob_In_MO

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:58 am

Two different issues here, Gentlemen.

Drones with cameras for domestic use - I see no problem with that.
Drones with weapons for domestic use - Yeah, that could be a problem.
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LIPIPE

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:36 am

Drones with cameras?......More naked smokes in the yard. Great photo ops.
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alfredo_buscatti

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:36 am

Vito wrote:
alfredo_buscatti wrote:
Gold rules; always has, always will.
Well...then I guess that's that. "Always" is pretty final. No possibility of any other outcome. Wow.

Do you really believe that, Mike? How can you reconcile that with your other, wiser beliefs? You're essentially saying that all the power is in those whose greatest desire is for material things. I know that you know better than that.

alfredo_buscatti wrote:
Information is power...
...er, wait. I thought you just said it was "gold". Which is it?

"Information" is that which provides the answer to a question. "Power" is control over action. Like information, it is neither good nor bad. There is nothing wrong with power when you use it to control your own actions. When you use it to control others' actions against their will, then it's something else: coercion. Call it what it is, not what it isn't, or you're going to end up very confused.

alfredo_buscatti wrote:
...the Golden will...use their gold to become more powerful still, and most notably further entrench their power...They're not so much evil as they are greedy.
That's the textbook party line sold by Mr. Marx and his drones. It's a superficial analysis. As long as you commit yourself to that perspective, there is no possibility of any outcome other than violent conflict. I don't think that's really what you want, but if you insist on it, you'll get it in spades, my friend. Those who live by the sword...etc. You know I'm not threatening you. It's a natural principle: The law of karma, you reap what you sow, what you send out comes back to you... etc.

alfredo_buscatti wrote:
A coworker who favors conspiracy theory told me about this...
Did your conspiratorial coworker happen to mention a solution? I mean, one that doesn't involve violent overthrow of the existing system, or seizing property that isn't his. I'll bet he didn't.

We've discussed this before. Those who advocate such a violent approach call it "revolution", but there is nothing revolutionary about it. No

jocolor

Who are you to deem which of my opinions is wise?
You say "we have discussed this before" as if I'm making the same mistake twice. The real mistakes are your attempt to be my teacher and for me to have engaged with you at all. It won't happen again.
I find you competitive, opinionated and angry, completely unable to approach a dialog as an equal.
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Rob_In_MO

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:42 am

LIPIPE wrote:
Drones with cameras?......More naked smokes in the yard. Great photo ops.

I like the way you think, Marty! Twisted Evil
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kaiser83

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:06 am

We already have armed drones along the border. They just purchased 2 more Predators to patrol the US/Mexico border.

For those worried about crashes, the FAA will not allow all types of drones to be flown in the United States. If a bird has a record of high crashes it will not be allowed up in our airspace to endanger the public. Now, there are emergency protocol in place for all levels of emergencies with drones. For instance if there is an engine out they are put down in an area away from population and maintain camera with the bird to make sure that people/property are not injured/damaged. If a bird loses communication it has a set route it will fly back "home" that is continually updated (a reason I do not believe the RQ-170 crash in Iran).

Drones aren't a bad thing and are a huge asset. Regardless of what is publicized about their uses it will only take one court case to change needing a warrant, like has to be done to put a tracker on a criminals car.
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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:36 am

drones are much cheaper to operate than the black helicopters.
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kaiser83

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:37 am

A Predator costs more to operate than an F-16 as far as maintenance and manning to operate. If we are talking small platforms then yeah, but the big boys cost out the butt.
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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:39 am

Quote :
If a bird loses communication it has a set route it will fly back "home" that is continually updated (a reason I do not believe the RQ-170 crash in Iran).

From another perspective, the armaments empire has always used (probably even encouraged) small-scale conflicts like the Spanish Civil War as testing grounds for new weapons/weapons systems. In that conflict, Germany was giving military assistance" to the Franco faction with their versions of "the latest and the greatest" while the Soviets were "assisting" the other side the same way.

Heck, when the Muhajadin were resisting the Soviets in Afghanistan, they ended up with stinger-type missles that could (and did) blow the Soviet helicopters out of the sky. That lost tactical superiority was the beginning of the end there.

At that same time, un-mentioned in the press, these same "goat herd" rebels were testing a portable laser in an attempt to disable surveilence satellites. Which, I believe, they succeeded in doing.

More than enough foreign (and potential domestic) leaders have been killed in mysterious plane crashes by now caused by (no great secret) pulsed energy weapons (fry a plane's electrical circuitry and it's lights out) that the picture's pretty clear. At least from here.

It's "our" toys against "their" toys, and the picture's always changing.

What a Face
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kaiser83

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:42 am

Yep I agree. I think we gave Iran that RQ-170 personally and bet it was filled to the brim with crap to get into their systems and send us back info.
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bosun1

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:07 am

kaiser83 wrote:
Yep I agree. I think we gave Iran that RQ-170 personally and bet it was filled to the brim with crap to get into their systems and send us back info.

I think i would call that a "Trojan"...like fishing...offer them something tasty, and when they bite they get hooked..
If they did I would term that a good idea. Probably using older out dated tech. Sort of like seeing a TV advertised on one of the shopping channels at a great price. Then finding out a month later that they were dumping the old sets and now you want to buy the newest version with the features you want..
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:18 pm

alfredo_buscatti wrote:
Who are you to deem which of my opinions is wise?
You say "we have discussed this before" as if I'm making the same mistake twice. The real mistakes are your attempt to be my teacher and for me to have engaged with you at all. It won't happen again.
I find you competitive, opinionated and angry, completely unable to approach a dialog as an equal.
I'm sorry you feel that way. You are right on one out of three counts; I am opinionated. But I'm neither competitive, nor the slightest bit angry...and certainly not angry at you.

I apologize for having given any offense. That was not my intention. Nor is it my intention to be your teacher. I share my perspective. You are not obligated to accept it.

As for the matter of future interactions, you must do what you think is best.

jocolor
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Rob_In_MO

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:58 pm

Hey Kaiser - what are the chances of you sending me a 'WASP' system?

One of those would be a great asset to the Empire (on a local level). Cool
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:48 pm

This...
Puff Daddy wrote:
...I'd think the true negatives are armed drones (eventually) maintaining a constant threat over a population as a means of governmental enforcement and control.
...is precisely the kind of potential for abuse that I was referring to in my OP.

I've no doubt that many people think, "That will never happen." And they're right if they mean we won't immediately transition to that from the conditions we have today.

But that's never the way anything happens. That's not the way we have lost all the liberties we no longer have. They've been eroded by degrees, and each degree is popular with The Majority™.
    "Besides, it's just a small sacrifice. We're just trading a bit of freedom for the security we need in the face of this temporary crisis..."
But the small sacrifices add up over time, and then one day you wake up and say, "Sheesh...what happened? How did it come to this...?" No

jocolor
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:03 pm

I just leave the blinds open on my place at any given time. Either I'll become famous, infamous, or they'll just stop looking. Enjoy the show, Big Brother. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:01 pm

Like any type of technology, there's always possibility for mischief. But I am looking forward to the time in which there will be unrestricted civilian use of the technology and use it in my job.
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Puff Daddy
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PostSubject: Re: Drones   Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:22 pm

Kyle Weiss wrote:
I just leave the blinds open on my place at any given time. Either I'll become famous, infamous, or they'll just stop looking. Enjoy the show, Big Brother. Laughing

Yes, we've seen the youtube videos affraid Mad

Vito, it's apparently just another chapter in the cyclical nature of societies. The power and control grab never changes, it just changes colors and uses different methods as technology evolves. Freedom fighters are butchers and thieves to those who are being rebelled against, and those who hold the wealth and power are always the tyrants. Same tune, same dance, different scenery.

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