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RonA3597

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PostSubject: Finnish education   Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:04 am

Hey Beetle, the Finnish education system is downright un-American. Twisted Evil



Finnish Educational System
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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:46 am

Fortunately.

How many here speak & write fluent Finnish ?

Or any other language ?

What a Face
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:05 am

I didn't Finnish my education.
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Harlock999

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:08 am

puros_bran wrote:
I didn't Finnish my education.

Good one! lol!
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Buckshot

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:15 pm

puros_bran wrote:
I didn't Finnish my education.

It shows. clown
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monbla256

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Age : 71
Location : DFW Metroplex, Texas
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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:09 pm

RonA3597 wrote:
Hey Beetle, the Finnish education system is downright un-American. Twisted Evil



Finnish Educational System

DUH! It's Finland's so what did ya expect ? Twisted Evil
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RonA3597

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:38 pm

My irony apparently wasn't clanky enough. Evil or Very Mad
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monbla256

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:59 pm

RonA3597 wrote:
My irony apparently wasn't clanky enough. Evil or Very Mad

'Twas just bein' dorky. I got it Twisted Evil "Fraid their system wouldn't work over here though. We'd have to make real social and economic changes here for it to work and THAT ain't gonna happen Twisted Evil
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:06 pm

monbla256 wrote:
'Twas just bein' dorky.

We're used to it.

But, one country will never be another, nor should they be. Ideas and cues are one thing, but instant templates of reformation just isn't in the cards. We gotta figure out our own speed on our own. It's just a people thing. Change is inevitable, and will always trounce someone's expectations. C'est la vie.

It's those that can adapt and not give in to the things they don't like that seem to abate the stress levels a bit better.
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RonA3597

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:21 pm

Monbla, I was being dorky as well - I guess it must be going around. Kinda like the flu except it's been a lifetime with me. affraid
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beetlejazz

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Location : Finland
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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:22 pm

Actually that's quite a good article! Sorry didn't notice this topic before. Smile

There's a part I would like to highlight:

Quote :
And while Americans love to talk about competition, Sahlberg points out that nothing makes Finns more uncomfortable. In his book Sahlberg quotes a line from Finnish writer named Samuli Paronen: "Real winners do not compete." It's hard to think of a more un-American idea, but when it comes to education, Finland's success shows that the Finnish attitude might have merits. There are no lists of best schools or teachers in Finland. The main driver of education policy is not competition between teachers and between schools, but cooperation.

I find this rather interesting, yet it sounds truthful enough. What I have understood about schools in US is that there's a lot more competition. I guess the system here is built on the sort of trust that kids will, with time when given some, follow the talents they have and good scores and constant monitoring don't a motivation make.

They're working really hard though to fuck it up on the university level here though. I think it's a couple of years now into the new system that makes universities dependent on private money, and frankly it looks to me that in this business private money is stupid money, easily attracted by empty, hyperbolic consult rhetorics and hopelessly short-sighted daydreams. Evil or Very Mad

But yes I think it does make sense, overall. This isn't a very competetive culture. And I am very thankful of the way I learned to know kids from many different backgrounds at school - when parents can't decide what school their kids go but it's just the nearest one, and communities are planned to have a variety of housing that attracts people from different places in the society, there's less of a risk to be surrounded only by kids that come from your own socioeconomic group. I have always felt it made me a little bit less naive I could be, and a little bet better prepared for life, and a whole deal less frightened of people who seem different from me.

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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:13 pm

Well, the competition is part of the larger picture. Here, after grade school, it preps you for middle school. Middle school preps you for high school. High school preps you for college. College is the goal, not for you, but for the people who want the loans, scholarships, parents' funds, etc. What happens to everyone afterward is a toss-up...having academia clamoring for campus jobs means the colleges have an endless workforce they got paid to create, with the public school system's help.

It's a factory for money, so of course there's little carrots on stick competitions. Just like there's "who can get the most customer service compliments" at a dead-end corporate grocery store job.

Education is rarely for real learning, preparation or even high-level vocations anymore. It's a packaged product, which is why it's pretty easy to get a bullsh*t degree in something non-technical, pseudo-scientific and even art. It's an expensive, 4-year, live-in after high-school care program to free up parents' time. Corporatists like it that way...so do governments.
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monbla256

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:36 pm

Kyle Weiss wrote:
Well, the competition is part of the larger picture. Here, after grade school, it preps you for middle school. Middle school preps you for high school. High school preps you for college. College is the goal, not for you, but for the people who want the loans, scholarships, parents' funds, etc. What happens to everyone afterward is a toss-up...having academia clamoring for campus jobs means the colleges have an endless workforce they got paid to create, with the public school system's help.

It's a factory for money, so of course there's little carrots on stick competitions. Just like there's "who can get the most customer service compliments" at a dead-end corporate grocery store job.

Education is rarely for real learning, preparation or even high-level vocations anymore. It's a packaged product, which is why it's pretty easy to get a bullsh*t degree in something non-technical, pseudo-scientific and even art. It's an expensive, 4-year, live-in after high-school care program to free up parents' time. Corporatists like it that way...so do governments.

Did we have a lousy college experience ? Twisted Evil
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:44 pm

Nope, I never went.

If you must know, I've been a poor student all my life. Incidentally, I have never had a problem furthering my education. As I watched my peers dwindle in confidence, financially, and emotionally as they adhered to this unidirectional scholastic path, it became an important lesson for me: don't walk down that dark alley, you'll get mugged. How do I know? I've watched it happen. I didn't need first-hand experience to teach me that.

Though being exiled and circumstantially removing myself from the education system (about mid-way through high-school) will never win me any points with those who endured, I'm full-sails ahead in this crazy world. Seems to work okay; what choice do I have, after all?

I call it "The University of Planet Earth." The post-graduate programs don't really end, the preparation given to me has been invaluable, the tuition is cheap and easy to combine with jobs, and the scheduling is pretty nice. That's kind of comforting, given the alternative.
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monbla256

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:51 pm

Everyone has their OPINIONS but that doesn't make 'em FACTS, just OPINIONS ! And most of us work out the explanations for their lives to justify them. We ALL do it, that's just the way we roll as they say. Twisted Evil No big deal, just is Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:55 pm

Ever notice how the two people here with the most pungent common sense are you and PeeB ?

I have.

What a Face
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:57 pm

Rolling Eyes Funny, Mon, how I had to help you with that concept regarding pipe advice when you first joined. Old dogs, new tricks, etc? Wink Please, keep stating the obvious. It's why we love you. I love you
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:00 pm

Yak wrote:
Ever notice how the two people here with the most pungent common sense are you and PeeB ?

I have.

What a Face

Thanks, Yak. I have a long way to go, need to whittle away some rough spots, but hey, ain't that life? I (hopefully) have a few years to keep going.
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monbla256

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:04 pm

Kyle Weiss wrote:
Rolling Eyes Funny, Mon, how I had to help you with that concept regarding pipe advice when you first joined. Old dogs, new tricks, etc? Wink Please, keep stating the obvious. It's why we love you. I love you

I am indeted to you for your wisdom beyond your years ( you'd think you'd been doing this for over 40 years Twisted Evil ) Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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beetlejazz

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:10 pm

I don't think that learning from life experience and studying for a degree in an university/college/whatever are mutually exclusive. But I've gotten a lot of the "Oh you haven't learned about LIFE as you're in your academic cocoon" or, say, when I was regularly working on the cemetary: "You academic types just don't know how to do the practical/hands on stuff" -shit. It's just as a unfounded stereotype as anything else.

I think studying in Finland and the degrees themselves are pretty different from what happens in US colleges. The big competition is at the entrance exams (I wasn't very good at school either and my marticulation exam results were pretty much as good as toilet paper for me) as there's no significant financial risk or restraints for studying so getting in is the big divider. The degrees are way less "colorful" than what I've heard people can do in US - you have to know your major clearly when you apply and there's limits to how far from it you venture. There's no art lessons in the university, you need to get into an art or design school for that (I think it's about 2% who get in). It's slow, people don't live in campuses, it takes easily 7-8 years to get your masters (bachelors is worth nothing here, once you're in you go for masters). Me? I had my personal breakdown around the time I should have been finishing my thesis, and it's taken me a few years to get back on track. Luckily the system is pretty forgiving. And I find it actually rather fair - I cost next to nothing to the university, I'm working on my thesis independently and will need very little help to finish this thing when the time is right. I'm just a name in their list of students for them.

The real shitty stuff starts after graduation. I find it ridiculous that the Finnish leaders love to toot the "education" and "research" horns while money is stripped constantly from all academic activity that doesn't sound like it's going to lead to the next big e-gadget.

I've said it before but personally I find it very important that there are institutions of learning and research. It's not only for producing information, but for maintaining information. Knowledge that's in books no-one is reading is just as disconnected from the society than a memory stick is disconnected from a computer when it's been pulled out.


Last edited by beetlejazz on Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
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monbla256

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:12 pm

beetlejazz wrote:
I don't think that learning from life experience and studying for a degree in an university/college/whatever are mutually exclusive. But I've gotten a lot of the "Oh you haven't learned about LIFE as you're in your academic cocoon" or, say, when I was regularly working on the cemetary: "You academic types just don't know how to do the practical/hands on stuff" -shit. It's just as a unfounded stereotype as anything else.

I think studying in Finland and the degrees themselves are pretty different from what happens in US colleges. The big competition is at the entrance exams (I wasn't very good at school either and my marticulation exam results were pretty much as good as toilet paper for me) as there's no significant financial risk or restraints for studying so getting in is the big divider. The degrees are way less "colorful" than what I've heard people can do in US - you have to know your major clearly when you apply and there's limits to how far from it you venture. There's no art lessons in the university, you need to get into an art or design school for that (I think it's about 2% who get in). It's slow, people don't live in campuses, it takes easily 7-8 years to get your masters (bachelors is worth nothing here, once you're in you go for masters). Me? I had my personal breakdown around the time I should have been finishing my thesis, and it's taken me a few years to get back on track. Luckily the system is pretty forgiving. And I find it actually rather fair - I cost next to nothing to the university, I'm working on my thesis independently and will need very little help to finish this thing when the time is right. I'm just a name in their list of students for them.

The real shitty stuff starts after graduation. I find it ridiculous that the Finnish leaders love to toot the "education" and "research" horns while money is stripped constantly from all academic activity that doesn't sound like it's going to lead to the next big e-gadget.

I've said it before but personally I find it very important that there are institutions of learning and research. It's not only for producing information, but for maintaining information. Knowledge that's in books no-one is reading is just as disconnected from the society than a memory stick is disconnected from a computer when it's been pulled out.

Well put Beetle, well put cheers
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:39 pm

Beetle, as you well know, I have only the US educational experience to pull from with what I witness.

College isn't bad, it just isn't automatically good, and certainly isn't worth it from the many of the masses who've gone through the gauntlet. Universities weren't always run this way. Working with many graduates and post-graduates who are 65+ years old in my field of work have opened my eyes to this--add to that the shocking observation I'm often one of the youngest people in the very necessary work I do made me realize something is wrong...I should have 22 year-olds running circles around li'l uneducated me and making it hard to get work. On the contrary, I'm a spectacle at meetings and conventions... "...it's so great to see a young face in our field!" Add to that the handful of college-age kids (and I mean, handful: five) that already have internships in similar areas like mine leading to six-figure careers because there's no competition, it makes me wonder.

College, around here, seems to be about the "experience" with a piece of paper you get at the end. It hasn't prepped many kids for jobs, work, or internships. Part of that is any of the industries that could be involved with the colleges/universities laying down and merely accepting the fact they aren't politically-correct enough to have a presence on a campus (pick any industrial application, the dirty stuff people are trying to ignore are a vital part of modern civilization), so the blame is two-fold, at least.

The University of Nevada Reno used to have one of the most comprehensive and respected mining engineering programs around. The mining companies used to have a huge part in helping to subsidize education, prepare students for careers, and establish fast-track internships for students. That meant people earning degrees and paying for tuition kept their money in the state's economy, and found jobs close to home. Besides the new administrations that have been shoring up their ranks in politics, the proper donors and good-buddy tenure teaching positions systematically dismantling all but the most basic of geology and mining programs/courses, UNR now gives out a majority of degrees in things like political science, environmental biology and generic engineering--which not only make it impossible for students to get jobs, they take them outside the state, leaving us with a vacuum of general labor (casino-related, mostly), which perpetuates the idea Reno isn't a town other businesses want to set up shop. Why? Because people with money, spend money, improve towns, pay taxes for other things, and the like. If they take their degrees, provided they're useful, elsewhere, poof, a so-called crappy town.

Regarding mining, which is Nevada's real strength, the fact maybe a half dozen students graduate with degrees even half-way useful to the industry, an industry desperate for talent and workers, an industry with plenty of money to pay them good salaries with 14% unemployment, is a damn shame. Kids also largely are enamored by the urban life, big cities with convenient trains, bike paths, health food stores and Internet coffee shops. They have been taught small towns are shit, getting dirty is uncool, and air conditioning is where it's at (pardon my preposition). That's all well and good, but they could have their cake and eat it to by making their town better, having their conveniences and chosen luxuries while still working a little dirtier than a big city dream job as a video game designer or bicycle frame engineer.

All of those things require what I do, what my industry does. They could do it here, where there's a better working condition than China (and not nearly as environmentally worse, ironically), but the school system is more concerned with itself and its image--which in turn, does a disservice for all involved. They often sell a dream with little regard to how it's working out in the long run.

That's just here. However, my industry is world-wide, and I talk to a lot of folks, young and old, educated and laborer, that all are scratching their heads just as often as I.
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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:02 pm

Quote :
Ever notice how the two people here with the most pungent common sense are you and PeeB ?

I have.

The intended point (which I figured was too obvious to belabor) was that neither of you finished highschool.

Direct correlation there.

What a Face
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:06 pm

Yak wrote:
The intended point (which I figured was too obvious to belabor) was that neither of you finished highschool.

Direct correlation there.

Well, I took it as a direct compliment, and you can't take it back. I love you

I actually had no idea PeeB didn't finish school, either. I mean, it makes sense, but at the same time, had he said, "Yeah, I have a Masters in ___________ " I might have bought that, too.
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Finnish education   Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:30 pm

Actually I finished High School, it was College I didn't Finnish.

I quit when I realized the only thing I was being taught was to tell someone exactly what I was being instructed to tell them in the exact manner and form I was being instructed to tell them. Thinking in it's purest sense is not required.. It's more rote memory than anything.. Don't misunderstand, Rote 'learning' is useful for mathematics (and science, but it's still mathematical ) formula and what not but it doesn't teach one to think.

Having said that I'm not anti-higher education. If I ran the joint I'd streamline the process though. A business degree could be taught in 12-16 months or so if we didn't waste their time cramming "Horror Film 101" and "God or No God, That is the question 137" into the curriculum. A science degree really doesn't need "Shakespearean Sonnet's 321" ..
Conversely an Art degree doesn't need "Calculus 217" and a Veterinarian doesn't need "String Theory 482"

Teach people what they need... they can fill in the blanks on their own time.

AND even worse don't call a CDL School " Truck Driving College".. it's a trade school (a poor one but still) And there is nothing wrong with trade schools as higher education.. Focused learning is a good thing.
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