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 Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?

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AJ

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Age : 69
Location : East of the Rocky Mountains
Registration date : 2012-03-18

PostSubject: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:38 am

Hello Brothers,

I'm faced with a dilemma that I can't find a solution to. I've got this friend that owns and operates a little B&M not far from my home. He's been at the same location for 40 years and he's a walking encyclopedia on tobacco, cigars, and pipes. Knows the characteristics of every product he sells including the history and the manufacturing process. On top of this he's one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. He's been married to the same woman for over 40 years and his children are some of the best behaved and respectful kids I've ever encountered. He goes to church every Sunday and is active in several civic organizations. He's also my personal friend and I want to give him all of my pipe and tobacco business.

The problem is his prices when compared to online retailers like P&C, 4Noggins, Smoking Pipes, and etc. For example he charges $23.50 for a can of OGS and when I buy 5 or more cans from P&C the cost is $10.60 per can. That's a huge difference. It's that way with all of his tobacco and pipes. A pipe I can get for $60 online will cost $118. with him. I realize he has overhead such as rent and utilities to pay and a family to support and I'd like to do my part to help him stay in business. He's too small to buy in volume so he can have cheaper prices. 

My dilemma is I can't in good conscience pay his prices when I can get the same product for almost 50% less online but when I go into his shop to pick up something I need right away or need a repair I can hardly face him without feeling I've stabbed him in the back and betrayed a good friend because I'm giving my business to someone I don't even know. I hate this sense of betrayal and don't know how to overcome it. It's obvious that he has lost a lot of business over the last couple of years. He has admitted that to me and he knows he's loosing his customers to online retailers. There's nothing he can do to stop it. He's nearly 70 years old and is not interested in investing in an expansion project this late in life. I guess that's the way the economy works today. Walmart comes to town and the Mom and Pop stores go out of business.

Any of you have any comment or a solution that will help keep him in business and help me in keeping the guilt feelings at bay for shopping online?
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Smoker99

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Age : 71
Location : Florissant, Mo
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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:19 am

It's not a matter of conscience to not want to pay higher prices, it is economics. I watch what I buy, and try to buy local and USA made goods too. Most the local B&Ms charge over double online prices, one does not, and is competitive. I am willing to pay local taxes and some overhead to buy local, but these guys prices are too much out of line. I buy about 25% from the local who is competitive, but mostly online because of inventory.
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leftover421

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Location : Idaho
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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:02 am

100% B&M. Ok not 100%, more like 99.5%. I'm lucky though, the little B&M in my town stays competitive somehow. I suspect that's down to the fact that they do more business online then they do in the shop. They keep a decent supply in, nothing big. I think I would still pay some extra just because they know me there. They keep my favorites in good supply, they know me by name, the shop owner has become a good friend, and it's my getaway when I have no other. I love to sit with the owner in the private back lawn of his shop, shoot the breeze and have a relaxing pipe where no one can find me.

My local B&M
http://www.outwesttobacco.com/

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alfredo_buscatti

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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:37 am

A compromise?

Are you really saying that a 50 g tin costs $23.50? If so I think that's inflated and that you might be supporting a friend that you care about whose prices would say that he isn't a good business person. The last I heard about this situation the consensus was to expect ~25% higher prices at a B&M, but your B&M is pricing @ ~125% markup.

Just saying, just my opinion.
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HCraven

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Location : Fort Wayne, Indiana - Home of the Falcon
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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:44 am

I support my B&M whenever I can.  The higher prices are offset by the fact that I don't have to pay shipping when I want a tin or two, and it's reassuring to know that I might still have a source for good pipe tobacco if the state ever bans online sales.

That said, I've never paid that much for a 50g tin of tobacco.  The Dunhill Flake I bought from my local shop most recently set me back $15 (compare to around $10 online), so the price is not totally out of line, especially considering the state tax.  $23+ for 50g is a rip off no matter how you slice it.  I can buy a 100g tin of McClelland for less than that at my B&M.

One customer is not going to make or break a business. At those prices, he won't be selling pipe tobacco for very long no matter what you do.
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Carlos
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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:02 am

Don't forget the difference in taxes adding to the costs. I spread my money around. Everybody gets some of it. But I really don't have a local B&M. The closest thing to one for me has competitive priced Opus X cigars. So that's where I pick those up.

_________________


"Never turn your back on a Breen".
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Ocelot55

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Location : Columbus, OH
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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:36 am

Taxes could be a big part of the problem. Each state has a different rate on tobacco. It is no secret that many of the major players in cigars (CI) are in PA: low low state taxes. Here in Texas every B&M has to add about an additional 50% to 100% the wholesale cost depending on tobacco product. In other words a B&M here pays $5 for a tin of tobacco wholesale, the state adds $3 pretty soon you have to sell that tin for $15.99 instead of the $9.99 you see online.

Hookah shisha is really bad down here. Someone can buy a 50gr. tin online for 6.99 but we have to sell it for at least $21 to make any profit.

I have made a good compromise with my local B&Ms. Every time I go into their shop I buy something. In fact I do not go unless I can budget spending about $20-$30. There is the advantage, especially with cigars, of trying a few sticks without buying in bulk. Sure I can get a 5 pack on CI for $20, but what if I've never had that cigar and I wind up not liking it. I would rather go to the B&M, ask what the owner's opinion is, and pick up several cigars I've not had before. If I like them I'll buy them in bulk later.
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monbla256

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Location : DFW Metroplex, Texas
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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:52 am

First off, it's YOUR money so YOU decide how and where you spend it. I'm sure he's nice, the shop is in town, etc., etc. but there is NO reason to feel guilty as to how or where you spend your money. There is really not any pipe oriented B&Ms where I live, most "tobacconists" here are just cigar stores, and based on what part of town they are located, you can find for example, a Punch Carona for $3.50 ea. at one shop in the lower income part of town and it's $5.95 ea. at the upper income part of town. Lot's of factors involved, the stores market, wholesale prices it pays, quantities it buys, overhead etc.,etc.. Buy what and how YOU can and want and loose the guilt Twisted Evil 
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pepesdad1

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PostSubject: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer   Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:03 am

I've got a similar problem. An older gentleman who has run his shop for 20+ years and refuses to change...crappy $10.00 pipes with more fill than briar...2 pipe tobaccos (not even his own..Lanes') and a whopping 3 tins of tobacco and refuses to order more cause "there isn't any demand" (what am I chopped liver). A 1.75 oz. of tobacco costs $24.00 from him or $10.00 on the internet. His style of merchandizing left town 35 years ago, but he doesn't see it. So my response after begging him to order stock that I personally would buy from him at inflated prices and he still won't comply....F*** him. Your friend is no different in my mind, if you are going to run a business, then run it. Don't play games and hope things might get better. If he won't help his business, you can't be expected to help him by emptying your pockets. This is what drives me to order on-line and cellar like crazy..cause we all know what is coming down the pike.
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Ocelot55

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Location : Columbus, OH
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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:18 am

pepesdad1 wrote:
I've got a similar problem. An older gentleman who has run his shop for 20+ years and refuses to change...crappy $10.00 pipes with more fill than briar...2 pipe tobaccos (not even his own..Lanes') and a whopping 3 tins of tobacco and refuses to order more cause "there isn't any demand" (what am I chopped liver). A 1.75 oz. of tobacco costs $24.00 from him or $10.00 on the internet. His style of merchandizing left town 35 years ago, but he doesn't see it. So my response after begging him to order stock that I personally would buy from him at inflated prices and he still won't comply....F*** him. Your friend is no different in my mind, if you are going to run a business, then run it. Don't play games and hope things might get better. If he won't help his business, you can't be expected to help him by emptying your pockets. This is what drives me to order on-line and cellar like crazy..cause we all know what is coming down the pike.

Hear hear! At the same time, our B&M's are something we should support. I don't know if you are allowed to smoke in your local B&Ms but I can in ours. Since I won't/can't smoke in my apartment, I never have the opportunity to smoke indoors anywhere else.

Here is a question for all: at what point does a B&M become more attractive than online? Or, let me phrase it this way, what if you had a local B&M that carried a medium supply of pipes and pipe tobacco, charged about $15 for a $10 dollar online tin, but they let you smoke inside, offer to buff your pipe for free, are knowledgeable about tobacco, and have excellent customer service. Would you be more likely to spend more money and time at this B&M or is price the only consideration when buying tobacco?
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pepesdad1

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Age : 74
Location : Tallahassee, Florida
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PostSubject: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:39 am

Ocelot55 wrote:
pepesdad1 wrote:
I've got a similar problem. An older gentleman who has run his shop for 20+ years and refuses to change...crappy $10.00 pipes with more fill than briar...2 pipe tobaccos (not even his own..Lanes') and a whopping 3 tins of tobacco and refuses to order more cause "there isn't any demand" (what am I chopped liver). A 1.75 oz. of tobacco costs $24.00 from him or $10.00 on the internet. His style of merchandizing left town 35 years ago, but he doesn't see it. So my response after begging him to order stock that I personally would buy from him at inflated prices and he still won't comply....F*** him. Your friend is no different in my mind, if you are going to run a business, then run it. Don't play games and hope things might get better. If he won't help his business, you can't be expected to help him by emptying your pockets. This is what drives me to order on-line and cellar like crazy..cause we all know what is coming down the pike.

Hear hear! At the same time, our B&M's are something we should support. I don't know if you are allowed to smoke in your local B&Ms but I can in ours. Since I won't/can't smoke in my apartment, I never have the opportunity to smoke indoors anywhere else.

Here is a question for all: at what point does a B&M become more attractive than online? Or, let me phrase it this way, what if you had a local B&M that carried a medium supply of pipes and pipe tobacco, charged about $15 for a $10 dollar online tin, but they let you smoke inside, offer to buff your pipe for free, are knowledgeable about tobacco, and have excellent customer service. Would you be more likely to spend more money and time at this B&M or is price the only consideration when buying tobacco?

Short anwer is yes. I would support any local small B&M that actually cared about my business. I support 4-Noggins even though their prices are a little higher than others, just because of Rich. I want to support the local family run business, because they are a dying breed....but not at the expense of sanity. A few dollars more I will spend if I can help keep them in business...but they first have to show me that they want my business.
Guess the short answer wasn't so short after all...I do run off at the mouth sometimes.
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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:42 am

You can get tobacco everywhere.

You can hardly find friends like that anywhere.

If that isn't a no-brainer, then there isn't any such thing as one.

Adjust your consumption to your budget. It isn't hard. I've done it for 40 years. You probably have too, although you don't much like to. When times are flush, I get more pipes & pass some of them along. When times are tight, I make do or do without.

I've got a bookcase shelf full of tins & jars of tobacco I bought in past years & I haven't opened yet -- because I can get by OK without dipping into them, and because the longer they age, the better they get. I like knowing that a lot better than I like instant gratification.

And you know what ? When smoking a pipe goes from being a habit to something anticipated, planned and done without distractions, it's much more greatly enjoyed.

Less is more when you do it right.

What a Face


Last edited by Yak on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Richard Burley

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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:44 am

I'd chuck the guilt and look at it from a practical standpoint. Can you easily afford the higher prices? If so, I'd buy from the friend and be thankful his price, for valid reasons, isn't $100 a tin. I smoke to relax, not fret about how I acquired the means to do so every time I light up. But whether you're well-heeled or not, no one owes someone else a living. In any event, it sounds like his business's days are numbered. You might be doing him a favor by buying online and hastening the end. It's sad, though. I remember the days when a real tobacconist's shop was a viable business, and even "newstands" had decent choices at decent prices. Real Balkan Sobranie or Bengal Slices at a friggin' magazine store--so cool, man! Today's culture sucks.
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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:46 am

The way retail works we are loathed to negotiate and see it as a negative about us.

Online it 10 he's 20; offer him 15. Tell him you're willing to pay a premium for his friendship and services but can't afford double. If he's smart and a friend, he'll agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:31 pm

Outstanding question by the way.  People are rarely this honest.

There is no viable compromise, IMO, between greed and decency. You're either with the program (at least most of the time), or you're off it.

Everything in the modern pipes mentality (and this place is disfigured by it) fuels and celebrates greed. Getting & enjoying nice stuff is fine. But not when it develops a life of its own and is held up as the ultimate ambition.

Even if you're rich and over-the-top with it, you only have so many good-smoking, tasty pipes. And to be at their best, they need rest. My personal magic number is 10 right now. One or two more may come along IF everything lines up. And if not, contentment continues without the cherry on the top. That's still a sustainable rate of three every day, with a few OK pipes on the side for excess.

At that rate (and especially if you're smoking something like FVF bulk that can last forever if you prepare & pack it right), your burn rate (= expense level) becomes manageable. And if you're about done chasing butterflies (recreational tobacco consumption -- variety for the sake of variety), you're enjoying everything you smoke in dedicated pipes that amplify what they deliver. How many peak experiences do you really need in one day anyhow ?

You cannot reason with an obsession. But you can get a handle on your own impulses.

What a Face
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Dutch

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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:17 pm

AJ, I can appreciate your dilemma, but there are just a few things that have to be considered.

First thing that comes to mind, is that pipe smoking is supposed to be an enjoyable stress relieving experience for enjoyment. If the pipe and cigar industry as a whole, needs to constantly keep the consumers stressed out to the point that they spend more time worrying about who is going to put who out of business, maybe those consumers need to find another stress relieving hobby. I say this, because as much as I want to support the fight against excessive taxation as well as the threat to outlaw tobacco nationwide, the truth is, I CAN do without tobacco all together if it comes right down to it.

In fact, I have experienced the exact same situation you describe, because my local tobacconist who I really think is a great guy, has hired an a$$hole to manage his shop. This makes the entire experience of driving 70 miles round trip to buy my tobacco very easy to figure out. I buy online now, and I don't have to listen to the new manager run all the other customers down behind their backs, and ruin the experience for most of the people who come in. If he ever gets himself fired, I may consider going back, but I will probably just leave it where it is.

Bottom line is business is business. Do you think that when Henry Ford invented the automobile, some folks conscience bothered them about buying an automobile when they considered their local blacksmith and horse breeder? Did it bother enough peoples conscience that most people still ride horses?

My point is, if you buy every single tin of tobacco and every single pipe from this guy till the day he passes on, if he is going out of business eventually, you as one pipe smoker are not going to prevent it.

It is nice to do business with friends, but sometimes business can really wreck a friendship and vice versa.

Maybe the guy should consider getting into another business, and let the market dictate where the majority of people buy their tobacco. If he is like most tobacconists, he is not sweating losing any pipe smokers business, because most of his profit comes from cigar sales anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:25 pm

That too.

But still : everything you buy at Walmart helps put somebody local out of business. Maybe by only 0.0001 %, but it adds up.

Your actions do have consequences, and there are no perfect solutions. Mine works for me, at least. If it does for you, too, then there are two of us here.

What a Face
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Dutch

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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:30 pm

Yak wrote:
That too.

But still : everything you buy at Walmart helps put somebody local out of business. Maybe by only 0.0001 %, but it adds up.

Your actions do have consequences, and there are no perfect solutions. Mine works for me, at least. If it does for you, too, then there are two of us here.

What a Face

Yak, if Walmart ends up ruining the American economy, maybe the armed uprising will have to include Bentonville AR, right after Washington D.C.!
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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:44 pm

I'm with yak on this one. I pay inflated prices for the sake of building my relationships with my local tobacconists.

In previous posts in this thread, there was the guy that was not offering good customer service, and that is just bad business, but for the OP, the man's only fault was the price. Good product knowledge, a place to smoke outside of your home, and friendly people are worth the double pricetag in my opinion. Monbla, I disagree that you shouldn't feel guilty about where money is spent in a case like this. The day I choose money over the human race is a day I will always feel guilty about. It is his choice, and his money, but consequences are just that: consequences.

I can eat peanut butter instead of steak once a week and make up for the price difference, there is no way to make up for human interaction face to face, even here on this board. I relish my time spent reading and writing on here, but it doesn't even come close to real life.
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GeoffC

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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:25 pm

So my local B&M has had a new owner for a few years now and moved the store into pipes and tobac. He has been great in getting the tins I like. Some prices are well in above what I can get online. Most of the stuff I buy is pretty much on par what I can get online. I buy from him and online for stuff he doesn't carry.

If the price difference is as big as your stating I would tell him about it. Now my local B&M also sells online so he tries to keep prices in line with online retailers.
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ftrplt

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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:20 pm

I support any local B&M when I get the chance. Don't really have one any more when I'm in OKC. Between the state tobac tax and sales tax, the prices for pipe tobacco are just crazy! Most shops carry little to no decent pipe tobacco selection; they are mostly into cigars. I do frequent several B&M's throughout my travels and during my time in NC. I spread my online buying between SP, P&C, and 4 Noggins mostly. If any of you BoB's in North Carolina have a fav or two, I would appreciate your input; especially around the Raleigh area. I've got Asheville, Charlotte, W-S, and Wilmington pretty well covered!!! Thanx, FTRPLT
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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:03 pm

Only place in Raleigh worth going too for pipe tobacco is the one I frequent called Tobbacconist of Cary or the online presence is PipeAndLeaf.com. Phil is a good guy. It is on the corner of Cary Parkway and Old Apex Road in Cary. Store is located between Ace Hardware and Food Lion.
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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:44 pm

It's the Shark Tank dilemma. Should you be smart and self-interested about buying a new car, or should you show charity and buy from your dumb brother-in-law whose wife just gave birth to twins? Remember, you, too, have a family to sipport. And in this case the B&M's prices are waaay out of the market. Besides, pipes and tobacco is a perfect Internet business and a problematic B&M business. The customer base is small and widely dispersed. I read recently that there ae only 1.5 million pipe-smokers in the U.S. (!!!) Squeezed B&Ms can't just sit tight, let service and product deteriorate, and raise prices as if they're entitled to the local trade. Your friend most likely knows the end is nigh.
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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:03 pm

I worked in retail for a while. The owner of the shop had some theories about good business practice that made sense to me. First he said you never have just one vendor. You have two and more or less split business. Then you have a third one you throw some business every now and then. This makes sure they are all working to get each order. Second, all you are really selling in a B&M is service. You can't compete on price with the internet, but customers can't mail order personal attention and "value added." They will only buy what you have in stock and only then if they know you want their business.

I want to support the local B&M pipe shop. If I go in looking for something, and it is in stock, I buy it. I don't even check prices online. If I need repairs - a new stem or a band on a cracked shank, it goes there and does not get sent off. Of course he may be sending it to Walker and getting a percentage, but that is OK. They remember my name and suggested I try ODF when they got some.

Having said all this, I have multiple vendors. I want Pipes and Cigars to stay in business too. They seem to appreciate my orders, and service has been good.
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ftrplt

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PostSubject: Re: Dilemma: B&M or Online Retailer?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:16 pm

GeoffC wrote:
Only place in Raleigh worth going too for pipe tobacco is the one I frequent called Tobbacconist of Cary or the online presence is PipeAndLeaf.com.   Phil is a good guy.   It is on the corner of Cary Parkway and Old Apex Road in Cary.  Store is located between Ace Hardware and Food Lion.

Thank you!! I'll sneak a peek on next trip!! BTW...Do you belong to TAPS (Triangle Area Pipe Smokers)?
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