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 2 Minutes of Reality

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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:53 am

Yak:

I respectfully beg to differ. Cultivating the hive mentality isn't going to solve anything.



Mr. Oromaner's piece is "another two minutes" of fantasy. He isn't just plain wrong; he's so deeply and utterly wrong that I hardly know where to begin.

But I'll start here. The calculus absolutely was NOT invented by the "hive mind". It was invented independently by two original individual minds — Newton and Leibniz. The two approaches were so fundamentally different that there is no question as to their complete independency and true originality. It is a prime example of the old cliché "great minds think alike", not evidence that Bolshevized "thinking" has anything whatsoever to do with actual progress in human knowledge.

In fact, that kind of psychological collectivism is precisely what gives rise to the political Bolshevism you (quite rightly) vilify. The latter is a symptom of the former. If you genuinely want to eliminate the effect, your purpose is ill-served by promoting the cause.

The truth is that the greatest, most important fundamental discoveries are made by individuals. Lower-level, technological advances are often the product of collaborations, cross-pollination, and cooperation. But even in that context, the ideas that make incremental advances toward breakthroughs are the products of individual minds. Always. THAT is reality, notwithstanding any amount of historical revisionism or wishful thinking.

Rather than denying credit where credit is due, I would rather know the true authorship of ideas, and pay gratitude to those who are my benefactors. It's more than just acknowledging reality (...you know—truth); it's the moral thing to do.

It's also the practical thing to do. Our culture is in deep doo-doo right now — stuck in a rut wherein the "solutions" are just different versions of the problem, and you can't solve any problem by applying more of it. REAL solutions are going to be innovations, not more of the same kind of group-think that has only gotten us in deeper in the first place. The very last thing we need to do is glorify the hive, promote even more dronehood, and further subjugate ourselves to The Great Collective™.

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plumbernater

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:25 pm

Stupid comes in all colors.Shocked 
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Richard Burley

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:59 pm

This is mysticism; there is no such thing as a collective mind. Why oddities and coincidences of existence, of which there are many, have to be "explained" by bizarre constructs eludes me.

(I lie. I know why, especially in this case. I don't have the time. Who is the writer who said "Never write, except for money." Boswell? Besides, Vito has done yeoman's work above. Kudos to Vito.)
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:12 pm

No one wants to be in the hive, they would prefer to control the hive.

It's always about control. I seem to remember reports and essays by old-school scientists and anthropologists that used to argue that certain "breeds of people" worked better in strict servitude when applied to modern society. Of course, this idea didn't stand the test of time, but slavery is still alive and well. Isn't it better to have your subjects choose their shackles and a few different jobs, even be proud of them--rather than whip, beat and curse them into restraints and work? It's much easier for those at the helm, cost-effective, even...dare I say... productive. A free man is one of a trade, a skill, and a goal. These are dangerous men, because they edge toward independence.

There's a glitch in the matrix if anyone suspects anything is wrong, eh Veet? Smile I just saw the same black cat, like, a billion times. Laughing

Pulling the wool over my own eyes,

Cool
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:51 pm

Kyle Weiss wrote:
...slavery is still alive and well. Isn't it better to have your subjects choose their shackles and a few different jobs, even be proud of them--rather than whip, beat and curse them into restraints and work? It's much easier for those at the helm, cost-effective, even...dare I say... productive. A free man is one of a trade, a skill, and a goal. These are dangerous men, because they edge toward independence.

There's a glitch in the matrix if anyone suspects anything is wrong, eh Veet?

Cool
Well, said, Kyle. That is the insidious truth of the version of the Matrix that we've created — namely, that it is a far more pernicious form of slavery than the kind that comes with chains. At least those who are in chains KNOW they're enslaved. But those who've been defrauded into believing they're "free" simply because they get to choose their masters...they're victims of total enslavement.

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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:02 pm

Richard Burley wrote:
This is mysticism; there is no such thing as a collective mind. Why oddities and coincidences of existence, of which there are many, have to be "explained" by bizarre constructs eludes me.

(I lie. I know why, especially in this case. I don't have the time. Who is the writer who said "Never write, except for money." Boswell? Besides, Vito has done yeoman's work above. Kudos to Vito.)

Thanks, Richard. The very fact that you know that "the collective mind" is a fiction [...I mean, in the sense that Mr. Oromaner uses the term, which undermines and obfuscates creative individuals as the true source of primary value, whether he does so intentionally or merely because he's confused and doesn't know better] tells me that you probably know why folks have a need to fabricate such bizarre constructs, and then believe them with such tenacity that they ultimately descend into the limbic brain, whereupon they acquire a permanent emotional impetus that is immune to reason.

Not that I'm imputing such an irrevocably entrenched world-view to Yakster, or to any of the other brethren here, for that matter.

And to be fair, I do acknowledge the existence of a certain kind of "collective mind" phenomenon. In fact, I've experienced it. It happens all the time among musicians, who are "on the same wavelength". And there are numerous other examples: guys who function as a unit in combat; or the synergy among members of a well-tuned sports team (the 1972 Miami Dolphins, for example—a team that arguably contained no individual superstars, yet achieved something no other team in football history has achieved).

So, I'm not completely denying that there are manifestations of what I think one can reasonably call "a collective mind", but it is absurd to claim that the historical FACT of genuinely independent contemporaneous discoveries somehow "proves" that "great discoveries typically come not from individual minds but from the hive mind, aka, the collective consciousness." That just isn't true. And it certainly doesn't obviate or disprove the vastly more abundant cases wherein lone individuals are the source of great value.

By the way, if you do have the time and feel inclined to hold forth as to why such mystical notions as "the collective mind" have such broad appeal, I'd be interested in reading it.

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:06 pm

5) 

Translation : The model of the world I have adopted does not allow for anything like that to exist. As established once and for all time in the immortal words of Herr Professor Doktor Heissluft,

HPDH wrote:
This cannot be, because it cannot be !
[Translation continues] That being the case, no matter how often such "coincidences" continue to happen, this will not affect my capacity to warp the mechanism they suggest into approximate conformity with what I believe.

This, in accordance with my unalienable right as a rugged individualist to believe that which reinforces my self-image as a latter-day Benvenuto Cellini -- an inimitable, unique, individual genius.

Besides -- that's what all my friends think, too.

Enjoy your snooze, gents.

What a Face 

PS : There was nothing in that post about ideological conformity.
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:32 pm

For the record, I didn't expect that anything I wrote would alter your opinion, Yak. I just couldn't leave Mr. Oromaner's bold-faced lie sitting there unchallenged.

You prolly don't see it, but your response kind of pegs the irony meter. If I didn't know that you meant it as a scathing rebuke of views that don't align with The View From YakSpace, I'd send my congratulations for posting such a refreshingly frank self-examination.  

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:09 pm

Charles Fort wrote:
Reality is not only stranger than we imagine ;
it is stranger than we CAN imagine.
I leave room for that.

Especially when there's a clear pattern & it makes sense.

What a Face


Last edited by Yak on Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:07 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Relative lucidity.)
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:47 pm

Yak wrote:
Charles Fort wrote:
Reality is not only stranger than we imagine ;
it is stranger than we CAN imagine.
I leave room for that.

Especially when there's a clear pattern & it makes sense.

What a Face
That is laudable.

You know what the issue is here, I presume. It's really a matter of what you or I or anyone else considers to be "evidence", and what "makes sense".

In both cases, the ultimate determination is subjective. Anyone who pretends otherwise is...well, a pretender.

What you and I consider to be "evidence" and "sense" is different. That's been obvious for a long time. I see no need to cast aspersions one way or the other. We've both tried everything we know to bridge the gap...so far without success. I'm willing to let it rest there. The only alternative is perpetual, unresolvable conflict. I don't have the stomach for it any more.

I will continue to state my opinion when reality as I perceive it is at variance with the view from Yakspace. I trust you will continue to do the same. So be it.



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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:57 pm

Yak wrote:
Enjoy your snooze, gents.  There was nothing in that post about ideological conformity.
It's cool.  There was nothing in my post suggesting I took up a snooze against/aloof to your thoughts.

I was just babbling about hives.   I see Borg, I get all excited, because they were some of the best Sci-Fi villainy that was ever written into entertainment.   cheers 

Don't shoebox all of us so quickly.   I love you  I got your point; I'm  just more knowledgeable about the Borg.  I may be simple, but I try and only talk about that which I know.   With knowledge, though, resistance is futile.  

Cool
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:03 pm

Albert Einstein wrote:
The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education.
study  What a Face  study 
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:36 pm

I really miss cheese.

No, really, I do. Haven't been able to eat the stuff in over two years.

Pisses me off.





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i.keenum

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:12 am

Cheese ? ..... Ever heat blu cheese in the microwave...... Don't... Awful.

Is there any theory on how the memories / thoughts are transferred ? Some kind of electro magnetic energy or is it just observations? I really am curious not being sarcastic. Seems too big a coincidence but I'm having a problem making any guesses on how they can be connected over such large distances.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:48 am

The fascist regimes of the 20th century, the most notorious of which were WWII Germany and communist China and Russia, all put boundaries around thought and expression. Not content to control certain acts, they formulated their version of reality and forbade anyone to speak or think otherwise.

The urge to control is probably as old as man. If I fear but can control you, I can maintain the comforting illusion that I retain control of my life. For humans with rampant craziness and useless complexity, that is very appealing. Not to mention that if I am in control I can ensure that I get more of life's prize goodies than you, housing, food, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:12 am

Alex Carey wrote:
The common man…has never been so confused, mystified and baffled; his most intimate conceptions of himself, of his needs, and indeed the very nature of human nature, have been subject to skilled manipulation and construction in the interests of corporate efficiency and profit.
(Taking the Risk out of Democracy: Corporate Propaganda versus Freedom and Liberty)

What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:25 am

Quote :
Is there any theory on how the memories / thoughts are transferred ? Some kind of electro magnetic energy or is it just observations? I really am curious not being sarcastic. Seems too big a coincidence but I'm having a problem making any guesses on how they can be connected over such large distances.
The problem is NOT with the phenomenon. It's probably happened to everybody here, many times (some more than others). You get the idea out of the blue to call your old friend and, when you pick up the phone, he's on the other end. He'd called you, and you picked the receiver up before it had a chance to ring. Same deal with e-mails. Same deal with a lot of other things.

The PROBLEM is twofold :

1) Contemporary Science is utterly unequipped to come to grips with matters as subtle as consciousness.

2) But this has not inhibited what passes for Science to come off as if it were on top of everything, and its pronouncements were the last word on it. Voltaire and his "Enlightenment" clown troop started that attitude in the 1700s, and people have uncritically "passed it along" ever since. It's an attitude and, often, nothing but one.

On one hand, they keep insisting that they, and they alone, have the ONLY approach & procedure capable of coming to grips with reality. On the other, even Australian Aborigines take inborn human capacities like telepathy for granted, assuming that everybody else must, too.

There are models that are at least useful. But they fall under Herr Professor Doktor Heissluft's ban : they cannot be because they cannot be. Leaving ordinary people with the choice of whether to "believe" him, or their own lying experiences.

What a Face
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i.keenum

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:20 pm

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
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Richard Burley

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:47 pm

Just to keep the pot simmering, an easy quote that takes me no effort to paste, thus allowing me time for more serious matters like dealing with the intricacies of tobaccoweed. Needless to say, I'm on the side of the clown troop that brought us the hellish Enlightenment:

Don't you believe in flying saucers, they ask me? Don't you believe in telepathy? -- in ancient astronauts? -- in the Bermuda triangle? -- in life after death?

No, I reply. No, no, no, no, and again no.
One person recently, goaded into desperation by the litany of unrelieved negation, burst out, "Don't you believe in anything?"

"Yes,” I said. "I believe in evidence. I believe in observation, measurement, and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I'll believe anything, no matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is, however, the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be."

-- Isaac Asimov (1997) The Roving Mind. Prometheus Books. p.349
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:55 pm

Many paths, many discoveries, enjoying the journey.

I lack the proper label to take sides on either account, evidence or faith. Sometimes things just are. Understanding makes a fascinating bedfellow.

If I can have fun no matter the conclusion, preconception is just garnish on the plate.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:03 pm

Go back & re-read what Mike posted about Control. And read it from the perspective of people trying to maintain a semblance of personal coherence in the face of the unimaginable. By pronouncing judgement on what reality can and cannot be or involve, in advance, they use the power of belief to insulate themselves from it.

There is, undoubtedly, a resulting sense of coherence & control . . . the "I am the captain of my fate ; I am the master of my soul" belief (mantra), which serves them well. But they mistake it -- mostly on purpose -- for authentic engagement with the world around them.

Belief is the magic wand that erases awareness of the disturbing. The psychological term for it is Denial.

Repeating for those who came in late :

Alex Carey wrote:
The common man…has never been so confused, mystified and baffled; his most intimate conceptions of himself, of his needs, and indeed the very nature of human nature, have been subject to skilled manipulation and construction . . .
(Taking the Risk out of Democracy: Corporate Propaganda versus Freedom and Liberty)

Annais Nin wrote:
We do not see things as they are.
We see them as we are
.
What a Face
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:16 pm

Yak wrote:

Annais Nin wrote:
We do not see things as they are.
We see them as we are
.
Always been a fan of this quote, since I started reading Nin years ago.

In fact, to learn of ourselves, we learn of what we see and why. It might not clear up the fog completely, but it makes things a little easier to grasp on to, ugly and beautiful. Often it's why I "selfishly" try to learn more about the person closest to me, myself. The biggest enigma I have. If I went based on evidence on myself, I'd be an utter failure. Because I have more than a little faith in myself, contrary to evidence, I seem to do better. And see better, see the things as I am, to roll with everything else.

:weissbabble: 🤷

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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:22 pm

When investigations begin with honest questions, they can be productive of discoveries.

When they begin with didactic belligerence about what can and cannot be, they only "validate" the assumptions they began with.

What a Face 
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:06 pm

A Sufi Prayer  (anonymous)

We who know, and do not know that we know:

Let us become one, whole.

Let us be transformed.



We who have known, but do not know:

Let us once more see

The beginning of it all.



We who do not wish to know,

But still say that we want to know:

Let us be guided
 to safety and to light.

We who do not know,
And know that we do not know:
Let us through this knowledge, know.

We who do not know,
but think that we know:
Set us free from the confusion of that ignorance.

He who knows, and knows that he is:
He is wise.
Let him be followed.
By his presence alone man may be transformed.

As with our forebears
So with our successors
So with us
We affirm this undertaking
So let it be.

What a Face 
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PostSubject: Re: 2 Minutes of Reality   Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:36 am

Am I the only one having difficulty parsing some of the sentences in this thread? I done knowed I shudda finished dat kollege thing. clown 
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