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 Non-cased pipe tobacco

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Stogiegila

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Location : Phoenix, AZ
Registration date : 2010-10-13

PostSubject: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:25 pm

I continually have issues with tongue bite and am finding that it varies depending on the type of tobacco I smoke.

Seems like Orientals and heavy english blends do more damage than VAPers but they all take their toll. I find it odd that i can literally smoke 4-6 cigars in a row with no ill effects, but 1-2 bowls of pipe tobacco will destroy my mouth for the rest of the day.

I have discovered that alcohol magnifies the problem exponentially, so at least now I know not to drink while smoking a pipe. This however is not the case with cigars.

since I don't smoke aros I can only assume that it might have something to do with the casing used.

Im wondering if there are any uncased pipe tobaccos which might alleviate this problem?

Im currently smoking:
H&H Virginia Spice and Peterson's Old Dublin

Thanks
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Ocelot55

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Location : Columbus, OH
Registration date : 2012-03-28

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:42 pm

If you're not smoking aromatics as a comparison its hard to say if the casing is the issue.

It's more likely that your just smoking too fast. Your mouth is a lot closer to the fire on a pipe and that hot air hitting your tongue can do a lot more damage faster. In a cigar the smoke has to travel through all the tobacco which essentially acts as a filter and a smoke cooler.

If your having trouble slowing down (ie pipe going out constantly) change your packing method, let your tobacco dry out before packing, or both.

That's the thing about pipesmoking, it takes years to perfect a technique. I've been smoking a pipe for 8 years or so and I'm still learning.
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BigCasino

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Age : 49
Location : North of Pittsburgh pa
Registration date : 2012-11-27

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:00 pm

+1
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Stogiegila

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Location : Phoenix, AZ
Registration date : 2010-10-13

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:12 pm

I really don't think speed is the issue. While i'm always trying to perfect my technique, I typically take an hour to smoke a corn cobb and usually with 2-3 relites.

I use the two stage packing method and find the draw neither too light or too stiff. I literally feel the tongue bite on the first puff to the last.

PS. my cobbs also use a balsa filter so I'm not sure it's a temp thing vs a chemical one. I have smoked aros in the passed and have had the same problem. I just don't get the satisfaction from an aro that I do from the other blends

thanks
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Geoff



Registration date : 2013-09-08

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:20 pm

If heat is there at the start, I suspect overfilling.

While the common suggestion is to smoke slower, I'd say draw slower means more. Just drift the tobacco in. Slow cycling with a fast intake is going to get hot.
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monbla256

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Age : 71
Location : DFW Metroplex, Texas
Registration date : 2012-01-15

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:06 pm

Basically ALL tobaccos are "cased" in some manner to facilitate staying lit and to have better smoking qualities than just raw unproccesed tobacco has. This goes for cigarette 'bac, cigar 'bac and pipe 'bac. It's done by the producers of the 'bac prior to selling and any further"casing" is done by the end producers for the particular product. So, unlessyou buy your tobacco directly from the grower in the field, 'fraid your "problem" is something in the method(s) you are using for the specific blends you are smoking. Some good advice has been given and you may have to give some different methods a further try. I don't load, pack and smoke all the varieties of blends i smoke the same way, rather I vary according to the pipe it's in, the specific blend and the surroundings I'm smoking in. Twisted Evil
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Stogiegila

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Location : Phoenix, AZ
Registration date : 2010-10-13

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:23 pm

I pretty much smoke using the breathing method, but will continue to modify my technique to see if something chnges.

Monbla;
This is why I pretty much stick to ribbon cuts. I find flakes and cakes much more difficult to deal with. The only exception seems to be Escudo coins. They rub out easy but also smoke well folder.

I shall endeavor to persevere.
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Kyle Weiss

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Location : Reno, NV
Registration date : 2011-09-18

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:44 pm

Well, if you're convinced it isn't the speed (regarding heat), the chemistry, the cut, and we may have ruled out it isn't "casing" (as it has been discussed frequently all pipe tobacco is cased to some degree, whether it's a scant amount for flavor or binding, or otherwise), you might have to simply toughen up your tongue a little.

I still think it's a chemistry thing if operator error and bad pipe design has been eliminated. Filters are primarily a moisture abatement, but simply due to their nature, capture any and all things passing through a stem, and will not eliminate simply "the stuff that bites." That's why I don't use them. I don't have moisture issues, and flavor is paramount.

Only time I get tongue-bite any more is smoking something that is off chemically with my system or I'm indulging in far too many pipes in an evening than I should. Laughing Perfect smoker I'm not, but I'm a quick study. Pain vs pleasure is a good motivator and gauge for gettin' it right.

🤷
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alfredo_buscatti

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Age : 62
Location : Piedmont, North Carolina
Registration date : 2007-12-17

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:20 pm

IMHO a sore mouth can only mean one thing: problematic smoking technique. One's subjective judgment in the final analysis can be inconclusive but the verdict of the tissues in your mouth is final. Hot smoke can be managed within the window of slow smoking; but once you move outside of that window, your mouth complains.

Just for grins cut your rate by 1/2. If your mouth is still sore, cut it in 1/2 again. By nature we want the smoke and the flavor, and so wanting we puff along. We also want to suck. It took me 11 years to slow down, and I probably should slow down even more. My biggest problem now isn't controlling my rate but tasting flavor at a reduced amount of smoke. My automatic reflex is to puff faster.
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flytyer

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Age : 51
Location : N E Pa.
Registration date : 2009-03-22

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:45 pm

I think if you can smoke 3 to 4 cigars in a row you're well conditioned to smoking and the tobacco is probably not the issue. I would suggest packing the bowl looser than you normally would and sipping the smoke and letting it flow into your mouth. Another thought is maybe changing blends, you may want to experiment with one that contains a good portion of cigar leaf.
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shootist51



Location : Indianapolis, Indiana
Registration date : 2007-12-28

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:00 pm

All pipe tobacco should be sipped, not puffed.
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the macdonald

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Age : 42
Location : Windsor CT
Registration date : 2008-08-31

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Stogiegila wrote:
I continually have issues with tongue bite and am finding that it varies depending on the type of tobacco I smoke.

Seems like Orientals and heavy english blends do more damage than VAPers but they all take their toll.  I find it odd that i can literally smoke 4-6 cigars in a row with no ill effects, but 1-2 bowls of pipe tobacco will destroy my mouth for the rest of the day.

I have discovered that alcohol magnifies the problem exponentially, so at least now I know not to drink while smoking a pipe.  This however is not the case with cigars.

since I don't smoke aros I can only assume that it might have something to do with the casing used.

Im wondering if there are any uncased pipe tobaccos which might alleviate this problem?

Im currently smoking:
H&H Virginia Spice and Peterson's Old Dublin

Thanks
I fell your pain to some extent.  I've been smoking for 10+ years and anything with a more than a touch of VA's irritates my mouth a little.  I figure I am just sensitive to it and smoke mainly Balkan and some English. These treat me well and I like 'em.  I love Orientals but most of them are mainly VA with Orientals as a spice so I'll be cotton mouthed for the balance of the day.  

If it hurts when you do "this," a decent Dr will tell you not to do "this."
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Ocelot55

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Location : Columbus, OH
Registration date : 2012-03-28

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:47 pm

I hear you on that. Some tobaccos just don't play nice. For me it's Burley. First time I had a Burley blend I couldn't feel my tongue for a few days.
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Brewdude

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Age : 65
Location : Near the Emerald city
Registration date : 2011-05-04

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:00 pm

FWIW I learned to mitigate tongue bite with -

Not smoking so fast.

Drying out moist blends (practice makes perfect).

Learning proper packing methods according to the cut/blend. (Still learning).

Fortunately, no particular toby has presented itself to be problematic. At least as far as the "chemistry" thing goes.

Haven't had the dreaded tongue bite since returning to pipes after a 8+ yr hiatus. Used to get it regularly. So much so, I gave it up in favor of cigars!

Now, palate fatigue after too many bowls is another subject.

monkey 


Cheers,

RR
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monbla256

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Age : 71
Location : DFW Metroplex, Texas
Registration date : 2012-01-15

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:04 pm

Some further thoughts: some blends just DON'T WORK for some folks, bottom line. Myself, I really can't handle a lot of Burley in a blend, so I don't smoke Burley heavy blends. It takes some time to figure all this out, but you've got the rest of your pipe smoking life to do this Twisted Evil Try something, if it works fine, if not move on and don't smoke it ! Twisted Evil 
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Cartaphilus

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Age : 63
Location : East Texas
Registration date : 2011-12-15

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:01 am

I think everyone has covered all the bases here Cool 
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Richard Burley

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Location : North Coast NY
Registration date : 2011-04-09

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:27 am

Cartaphilus wrote:
I think everyone has covered all the bases here Cool 
Yep. Slow down, looser pack maybe, less moisture maybe, etc. I have tried longer stems when I first started piping, but that didn't seem to work all that well. It does seem that a shorter stem will magnify your "sins," if any, but that may just be my experience. And cobs seem to smoke cooler than anything.

Enough "seems." Anyone smoke until your tongue splits or cracks? I have. Kind of scary in the mirror. Takes about four days to heal, with no smoking at all. But that was decades ago, and I'm here to tell about it. If you love how a pipe tastes, it is really hard to stop sucking like an infant at the tit, especially when doing something else like driving or reading or writing. That was my problem at the time. Sucking too hard--and tits, too, come to think of it.

I can distinguish no difference in tobacco types, as far as tongue bite goes.
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Stogiegila

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Location : Phoenix, AZ
Registration date : 2010-10-13

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:59 pm

thanks for the info guys. I will try my best to slow down more and see if anything changes.
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Canicus61

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Age : 56
Location : NJ
Registration date : 2013-10-16

PostSubject: Bite (me)...   Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:41 pm

I used to think that Virginias were the enemy in the war on tongue bite, but after years of puffing it seems to me that I've met the enemy and it is me! Smoke slowly - no bite - in my experience it helps with all types......

FWIW
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Briar Spirit

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Age : 49
Location : England UK
Registration date : 2012-08-30

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:39 am

Stogiegila wrote:
I continually have issues with tongue bite and am finding that it varies depending on the type of tobacco I smoke.

Seems like Orientals and heavy english blends do more damage than VAPers but they all take their toll.  I find it odd that i can literally smoke 4-6 cigars in a row with no ill effects, but 1-2 bowls of pipe tobacco will destroy my mouth for the rest of the day.

I have discovered that alcohol magnifies the problem exponentially, so at least now I know not to drink while smoking a pipe.  This however is not the case with cigars.

since I don't smoke aros I can only assume that it might have something to do with the casing used.

Im wondering if there are any uncased pipe tobaccos which might alleviate this problem?

Im currently smoking:
H&H Virginia Spice and Peterson's Old Dublin

Thanks
I feel your pain Buddy, wish I could tell you the magic answer and alleviate your strife for you but I got nothing, seems to me you know what you're doing and you're still getting bitten, that's a rotten shame, really feel for you there and hope you get it figured out soon.
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monbla256

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Age : 71
Location : DFW Metroplex, Texas
Registration date : 2012-01-15

PostSubject: Re: Non-cased pipe tobacco   Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:50 am

Here's the best explination of tobacco processing I've read (it's long but worth the read) and it looks like you cannot get away from any tobacco without it being cased NO MATTER WHO blends it. You may have some body chemistry which does not agree with tobacco, sad but for some folks it's how it is :

Attractive Aromas

Tobacco leaf is the main source of flavour and aroma in any tobacco product (Duh!) But aside from latakia and perique (which are stinky enough from themselves) and orientals, raw leaf itself has little smell or taste. And by raw leaf I mean Virginias and burleys, they are almost always cased. For example, I’ve smelled pure and dry Virginias in the tobacco warehouse from the German DTM factory. It made me think of fish-food in stead of the hay-like aroma I am used to. Also tobacco crops vary from year to year, they are not consistent. So flavouring supplements are necessary to create both taste and aroma and help maintain a consistency in them. Additives to tobacco products can be classified in two categories: casings and top dressings

Casings: Sometimes you read on labels of tins that a blend for example contains unflavoured Virginia and/or burley. Well, the truth is that very few tobaccos have no flavouring at all. Although a casing can be as simple as sugared water or honey. I know that DTM uses honey for the casing of many of their raw tobacco leaves, the factory floor is pretty sticky because of it. Casings are used at the early stages of tobacco processing to ease the negative qualities of a certain kind of leaf. Ehmm.. Some burleys can be somewhat sour and produce a more alkaline smoke, which can lead to the dreaded tongue bite. The use of a sweetener, a casing containing some sugar, can solve both problems. Some Virginias can be harsh, but also here, with the right casing that can be fixed. In general (of course their are exceptions) casings are not used to flavour the tobacco as much as to make it ready for other processing. Like you make a mild marinade for a piece of chicken to slightly give it a flavour, make it more tender and prepare it for cooking.

The flavour of a casing should be compatible to the base tobacco that is used. For example, white burley has a certain kind of nuttiness and would match well with chocolate. Which is a commonly used casing for burley. The tobacco which has to cased is put into a machine that somewhat resembles a large clothes dryer with little sprayers on the inside. The casing is then heated and injected into the chamber. Through the use of tumbling, steaming and vacuum pressure the casing works its way into the leaf. Casings are often steamed into the leaf. The steam helps to open the pores and insert the added flavour into the tobacco. Because of this process, casings are usually water-based. After the casing of the tobacco it is dried. Often by putting the leaf on a conveyor which passes through a heated chamber. This reduces the overall moisture content of the tobacco to a level that is more manageable.

The following step will be determined by what the blend is supposed to be. If the intention of the final product is to be an unflavoured blend, for example a Virginia/perique or latakia blend, then the base tobacco is ready to use right after coming out of the heating chamber. The tobacco will be put in a container or something like that in which the finished blend, combined with the other components, is mixed and then is packaged. If the the final product is to be a plug, flake or rope the process starts with raw leaf that will be cased like I told above. After coming out of the casing machine the leaf immediately goes into the press. This because higher moisture is needed to get a good pressing. Or it goes through the drying procedure and is re-hydrated to the right level.

Top dressings: These are flavourings that most of the time are applied at the end of manufacturing process. That signature flavour, that particular tin aroma, that heavenly room note; all the responsibility of the top dressing. They are usually alcohol-based. When the water based casing is applied, the drying process will bring the tobacco back down to the correct humidity. But at the end of the process the blender wants to avoid having to use heat to re-dry the leaf a second time. So he uses an alcohol-based flavouring and allows the tobacco to rest for a couple of days. The alcohol will evaporate which leaves the concentrated flavour behind with little additional moisture.


Most casings and top dressings contain a “fixing agent” to assure that the flavourings will stick to the leaf and remain stable until used. In addition to fixing agents hygroscopic agents are used. Hygroscopic agents are chemicals used to control the moisture content of tobacco. They prevent the tobacco from becoming too dry in a dry climate or from picking up moisture in a humid area. The most widely used agents are sorbitol, propylene glycol and glycerine.

Concentrated flavourings are preferred by most tobacco blenders. This because the extract/concentrate can be manufactured much more uniformly and is less subject to changes while being stored than natural flavourings. When I visited the DTM factory I saw shelves and shelves full with all kinds of concentrated flavourings. According to master-blender Andreas Mund the city of Hamburg (pretty nearby the factory) is the centre of the world for concentrated flavourings. Lucky DTM! It was a strange experience when I opened up some of the flasks and bottles and sniffed the contents. You read something on the label like “chocolate” and when you smell it you absolutely don’t recognize it because it is THAT concentrated. So it won’t be a surprise that some blends use as little as 8 tablespoons of fluid per 100 pounds of tobacco.

Here are some of the most common flavourings:
- Chocolate is manufactured as a natural product from the coco bean. It may be fortified with some cocoa which is synthetically produced.
- Fruit flavours are obtainable in both natural and synthetic form. Natural fruit flavours are extracted from processed fruit.
- Licorice comes from the licorice root and can be fortified with synthetic chemicals.
- Menthol can also be made synthetically or it can be used in its natural state which is distilled from peppermint oil.
- Rum used in tobacco is most of the time the Jamaican type. Jaaah man! It can also be synthesized.
- Vanilla can be used in its natural form but for the most it is manufactured synthetically.
- Wine flavours are as varied as the types of wine available: burgundy, sherry, madeira, etc.

It is very difficult to create a good aromatic blend. You have to take in consideration the natural aroma of the leaf plus whatever the casing adds. Virginias often have a hay-like aroma and if that is not taken into account you could end up with something entirely different than you were hoping for. Also certain flavourings take advantage of other ones. A bit of vanilla boosts the taste of chocolate. Or flavourings have a tendency to overpower others, like coconut. And then there are flavourings that just don’t match with tobacco in general. For example, Paul has always looked for a blend with a nice banana-flavour and has not found one yet. Banana and tobacco.. Should work one would think. Well, I spoke with aromatic master-blender Michael Apitz from DTM and asked him why they did not have any blends with banana-flavour. He took me to the warehouse and showed some old tins with… Banana flavoured blends. “You know, there is a reason we don’t sell them any more and why they are collecting dust in the warehouse” he said. “They just don’t taste good and because of that people won’t buy them.” So it may take a whole lot of trying out before the aroma of a blend is acceptable.

And if you want to know why most aromatics don’t taste like they smell, have a look here: Who’s afraid of chemistry? (by Paul)
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