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 Different cuts and aging

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DireWolf

DireWolf

Age : 46
Location : NW Oregon
Registration date : 2015-01-13

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PostSubject: Different cuts and aging   Different cuts and aging EmptyThu Jan 22, 2015 4:36 pm

Lots of discussion and comments on aging - mostly VAs, but others as well.

Some are bulk, some tinned, some loose ribbon, and some flake.

I have to believe there is a bit of a difference in aging a (for example) straight VA ribbon vs. a flake.

Different moisture content, contact between the flakes/pressed leaf, etc.

If they are VA blends this would (I assume) be more pronounced. I have been reading/watching vids talking about the "sugar crystals" on aged flake - never seen that in regards to ribbon cut.

I'd also assume that there would be a difference in a ribbon aged in bulk in jars where it could be packed, vs. the same blend in a tin.

Looking at tobacco cellar dot com, seems that the most aged tobaccos are flakes.

Has anyone played with this?

I searched, and this was the closest I could find: http://www.brothersofbriar.com/t14512-flake-vs-ribbon-cut

Didn't speak to aging.
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Kyle Weiss

Kyle Weiss

Location : Reno, NV
Registration date : 2011-09-18

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PostSubject: Re: Different cuts and aging   Different cuts and aging EmptyThu Jan 22, 2015 4:43 pm

Please send this question to "Ask GL Pease"...: http://pipesmagazine.com/blog/ask-g-l-pease/ask-g-l-pease-to-debuts-on-pipesmagazinecom/

He may paraphrase it in context and answer in a knowledgeable, pithy manner. It's a good question.

Cool

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DireWolf

DireWolf

Age : 46
Location : NW Oregon
Registration date : 2015-01-13

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PostSubject: Re: Different cuts and aging   Different cuts and aging EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 12:30 pm

Seriously?

Seems a bit pushy.  Laughing
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DrumsAndBeer

DrumsAndBeer

Age : 47
Location : Northern, CA
Registration date : 2012-04-04

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PostSubject: Re: Different cuts and aging   Different cuts and aging EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 12:50 pm

This is a great resource for all kinds of questions - http://www.glpease.com/FAQ.html

I have emailed Greg several times with all sorts of tobacco questions and he's always responded.

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DireWolf

DireWolf

Age : 46
Location : NW Oregon
Registration date : 2015-01-13

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PostSubject: Re: Different cuts and aging   Different cuts and aging EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 1:01 pm

I had read that before - but it was a while ago.  Thanks for the reminder - nothing specific on VAs, though.

Good info on aging:

Quote :
Q: Will all tobaccos improve with age?

A: Generally, any tobacco with plenty of natural sugars will age wonderfully. Virginia is always a prime candidate, but so are blends with lots or Oriental leaf. Though Oriental varieties don't have as much sugar as Virginias, they do contain enough to go through fermentation in the tin, and will improve over time, developing increasing complexity and a wine-like quality that is hard to describe.

Quote :
Q: How long can I expect a blend to improve?

A: It really depends on the blend. A full Virginia will continue to improve, though at an increasingly slow rate, over many decades. Most English style tobaccos can go 20-30 years before they begin to go "over the hill." Very full Latakia styles have a shorter life expectancy. Of course, storage conditions will play a part. It the tobacco is cellared at a constant, cool temperature, it will last longer than if it's stored in higher temperatures, or with lots of temperature variations. Despite some popular "techniques," heat is not the tobacco's friend, especially once it's had a little age behind it.

In general, the more virginia tobaccos there are in a blend, the longer it will maintain its composure. Orientals, too, seem to be very long lived, and age quite gracefully. Latakia loses its edge, and becomes much softer after some years, so if the blend depends on that intense, smoky spice for it's character, it's not a good candidate for long aging. But, if there is good structure underneath the Latakia, even though the blend will transform into something different, something less pungent, it'll still have the potential to deliver an amazing smoking experience.

Of course, not all blends are created equal, so not every tobacco will age gracefully, but since I started doing this, every one of my blends has been intentionally designed with cellaring and aging in mind, and on each of the description pages, you'll find my thoughts on the blends as I taste them over time.

Quote :
Q: Which of your blends are best suited for aging?

A: From the very beginning, I have always designed my blends with aging in mind. Barbary Coast, being so heavily based on burley, is probably the one blend that will benefit least from long cellaring, though the flavors WILL continue to meld over several years, and there's enough virginia and perique present to offer some significant change. The cigar leaf in Robusto may peak after 5-7 years, but the Virginias and oriental leaf will continue to develop increased complexity. The heavier latakia mixtures will evolve a certain softness after five to seven years, but will continue to become more complex, so whether or not you'll enjoy them old is really a matter of taste. Those that are less dependent on the smoky stuff will go much longer, continuing to develop for many, many years. All the VA based blends, especially those with perique in them, will improve for 10, 20, 30, 40 years or even longer, though after a while, they'll slow down. Ask me again at the turn of the next century…

 I cut and pasted the OP into the "Ask GLP" link above.  If I hear back, I'll post it. Laughing
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Dutch

Dutch

Age : 54
Location : On the road.......
Registration date : 2010-11-06

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PostSubject: Re: Different cuts and aging   Different cuts and aging EmptyFri Jan 23, 2015 4:44 pm

Sounds like an excellent topic for Greg or Russ to blog about. Hopefully there is an in depth explanation to go into, instead of just a couple sentences to answer the question.

I am curious about the crystals as well, as I have never seen any on a ribbon cut.
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huffelpuff

huffelpuff

Age : 49
Location : Laramie, WY
Registration date : 2011-12-10

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PostSubject: Re: Different cuts and aging   Different cuts and aging EmptySat Jan 24, 2015 12:11 am

I opened a tin of Balkan Sobrane maybe 2 months ago that had amazing sugar crystals all over the ribbon cut leaves. If I had known that it was a rare phenomenon I would have documented it with photos. So it does happen. Hope this helps in some way.

Jim
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Natch

Natch

Age : 68
Location : foothills of the Ozarks
Registration date : 2007-12-21

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PostSubject: Re: Different cuts and aging   Different cuts and aging EmptySat Jan 24, 2015 1:14 pm

DireWolf wrote:
Seriously?

Seems a bit pushy.  Laughing

Yes & no.  Greg has posted here on and off over the years and takes our questions and concerns quite seriously.  I find him eminently wise and experienced in the art of blending and also a charming wordsmith in his pros.

So, "yes, our BOB was serious in his suggestion, and "no", a good question is never pushy.

Natch
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MisterE
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MisterE

Location : Mexico City
Registration date : 2009-08-24

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PostSubject: Re: Different cuts and aging   Different cuts and aging EmptySat Jan 24, 2015 1:57 pm

Dutch wrote:
Sounds like an excellent topic for Greg or Russ to blog about. Hopefully there is an in depth explanation to go into, instead of just a couple sentences to answer the question.

I am curious about the crystals as well, as I have never seen any on a ribbon cut.

Dutch, i think it depends on how you cellar it. Ribbon cut blends that I've left in plastic bags tend to form those crystals more quickly than when I jar them. I know plastic bags aren't ideal for aging, but I had a half pound of EMP a few years back that really transformed over the period of a year. It probably has something to do with the passive O2 exchange with plastic.

_________________
Many of the greatest pleasures in life are illegal, immoral, or smelly.

-Yak
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Dutch

Dutch

Age : 54
Location : On the road.......
Registration date : 2010-11-06

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PostSubject: Re: Different cuts and aging   Different cuts and aging EmptySat Jan 24, 2015 3:25 pm

MisterE wrote:
Dutch wrote:
Sounds like an excellent topic for Greg or Russ to blog about. Hopefully there is an in depth explanation to go into, instead of just a couple sentences to answer the question.

I am curious about the crystals as well, as I have never seen any on a ribbon cut.

Dutch, i think it depends on how you cellar it. Ribbon cut blends that I've left in plastic bags tend to form those crystals more quickly than when I jar them. I know plastic bags aren't ideal for aging, but I had a half pound of EMP a few years back that really transformed over the period of a year. It probably has something to do with the passive O2 exchange with plastic.

Eric, you are probably right. I do almost all of my aging in mason jars. However, I just opened and started smoking 2 tins of Murrays era Nightcap, and after inspecting them closely, found some faint crystals had formed on this tobacco. I can tell though that this tobacco was ribbon cut from a flake cut, because there are stray pieces of unshredded flake here and there in both tins.

My guess is that the flakes hold more moisture, and this might encourage the formation of crystals more noticeably than on thinner ribbon cuts.
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MisterE
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MisterE

Location : Mexico City
Registration date : 2009-08-24

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PostSubject: Re: Different cuts and aging   Different cuts and aging EmptySat Jan 24, 2015 5:10 pm

I suspect it might have to do with loss of moisture over a given period of time. Imagine some Coca Cola evaporating. There will be a crystal residue left once the water is gone. Since Virginia tobacco is especially high in sugar content, it's probably what is left behind as the moisture evaporates. That might be why it forms more quickly in a bag than in a jar.  

It's possible the tobacco used in your Nightcap was already semi dried before it was sealed in the tins, hence some sugar crystals formed prior to tinning it. Just thinking out loud here...

_________________
Many of the greatest pleasures in life are illegal, immoral, or smelly.

-Yak
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DireWolf

DireWolf

Age : 46
Location : NW Oregon
Registration date : 2015-01-13

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PostSubject: Re: Different cuts and aging   Different cuts and aging EmptyMon Jan 26, 2015 12:55 pm

Moisture and it's loss would be key for that "sugar" production, but the ability for flakes and more so plugs (cakes too?) for flavors and sugars to meld/migrate across leaves would seem to be a huge advantage.

Packing loose cut into a jar would aid that contact, but lower the volume of air in contact with the leaf.........

G.L. Pease has not responded yet.  Laughing
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DireWolf

DireWolf

Age : 46
Location : NW Oregon
Registration date : 2015-01-13

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PostSubject: Re: Different cuts and aging   Different cuts and aging EmptySat Feb 14, 2015 5:44 pm

http://pipesmagazine.com/blog/ask-g-l-pease/ask-g-l-pease-volume-44/

It made Vol. 44.

I'm like, famous.
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DrumsAndBeer

DrumsAndBeer

Age : 47
Location : Northern, CA
Registration date : 2012-04-04

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PostSubject: Re: Different cuts and aging   Different cuts and aging EmptySat Feb 14, 2015 6:23 pm

DireWolf wrote:
http://pipesmagazine.com/blog/ask-g-l-pease/ask-g-l-pease-volume-44/

It made Vol. 44.

I'm like, famous.

Nice info there. Good question, btw..
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