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 Tobacco Prohibition Coming?

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robertw1249

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Age : 48
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PostSubject: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Sun May 24, 2009 10:12 pm

hi all i saw this on another board i thought some of you would like to read it
http://pipesmagazine.com/blog/pipe-news/tobacco-prohibition-is-coming/
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Justpipes
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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Sun May 24, 2009 11:03 pm

Robert,

What can you say?.................Many, even on this board voted for the administration and current legislators that are shoving these unconstitutional laws down our throats. It's what the people want. They knew it was coming and they voted for it anyway. Maybe they don't feel like they can make it through life without a government entity to make every little life choice for them. Or perhaps they lost the ability to think for themselves, I don't know.........the jury is still out on this madness.
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robertw1249

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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Sun May 24, 2009 11:11 pm

Justpipes wrote:
Robert,

What can you say?.................Many, even on this board voted for the administration and current legislators that are shoving these unconstitutional laws down our throats. It's what the people want. They knew it was coming and they voted for it anyway. Maybe they don't feel like they can make it through life without a government entity to make every little life choice for them. Or perhaps they lost the ability to think for themselves, I don't know.........the jury is still out on this madness.

yeah your right mark i know im going to stock up just in case this does happen its said this country is going to hell really fast
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Carlos
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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Mon May 25, 2009 9:28 am

This has been coming for a long time. If you have to have a date, 1973 is as good as any. When Florida passed the first restrictive smoking law. The latest administration in Washington, is just the latest administration. Look at the history and you will find both leftys and rightys behind this. The blind hatred some have for the current administration, is no different than the blind hatred some have for cigarettes. As least the blind hatred for cigarettes is understandable.

The interesting thing will be, where will congress, yes, congress, find the money to replace that raised by tobacco sales should prohibition come. If congress should ban tobacco in all forms, will they assume responsibility for the payments to the states from the tobacco companies?

_________________


"Never turn your back on a Breen".
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Herzl

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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Fri May 29, 2009 12:20 pm

No, there will be no tobacco prohibition, not in the sense of illicit drugs. However, the pressure to quit routine smoking is going to be progressively intense to crushing. We have already undergone massive price increases far disproportionate to inflation or tax increases. Similar to the licensing and maturation requirement history of scotch directed at limiting supply, resourceful gentlepersons will still be able to get quality, but it will be intended to be expensive enough to drive the common away. Already, quality foreign bulk is sputtering to terminal drought. What is available in Europe, with all their socialized regulation, significantly differs from that obtainable in America; the higher the nicotine content, the more difficult to get. Bulk 'stout,' like Class III firearms, will need a commercial license to get, and everything on the consumer level will be domestic tinned from licensed producers. Forget snuff.

FDA is the Tip of the Healthcare Iceberg:

FDA pressure compounded, the big hammer is health care: We are certainly breathing our 'room note;' pipe smokers have five times the incidence of lung cancer and four times the incidence of throat cancer. Insurance companies make no distinction; with a positive hair follicle cotinine test (testable metabolite of nicotine), your health premiums will be even higher than the current more than double, if you can get health insurance at all. For similar reasons, staying employed where the employer pays for health insurance is going to be increasingly a challenge. Those who live with a smoker are subject to the same, minors considered abused. Add that, if you have health insurance, more than the established bias against the poor, infirm, and elderly, your doctor may be unlikely to spend his or her testing and treatment 'capital' on someone perceived as a drug addict trying to commit slow suicide.

Exponential Personal Cost Increases/ Business Decisions/ Personal Responsibility:

In this reddest of red states, with among the highest national rates of tobacco use, you cannot smoke within 150 feet of the building door where candy and salt is all there is to eat on the premises. As obesity is an impediment to employment and advancement, discrimination against tobacco users has been elevated to a just cause, as noted, on the right as well as the left. As discussed in a GLP chronicle, in the tobacco consuming community, there is judgmentalism, one to another. Pipe smoking 'tasters' (some, not all, of course) condescend to 'mainliners,' premium cigar smokers to drug-store, to cigarettes to 'chawers' with their spitting, as unseemly addicts. Even the tobacco industry agrees that Americans need to quit smoking, the American-tobacco-consumption business model abandoned. Besides, why hassle with contingent liabilities? Possibly, Dunhill and other plugs were pulled as business decisions, others yet to be. Our society is dying from obesity, and related to that, meat, sugar, and salt laden foods, but the shadow of unsavory 'substance (drug) addiction' stalks all tobacco use; alcohol (in moderation) grandfathered. Bottom line: Any costs engendered by our (apparently unanimously agreed as indefensible) choice to use tobacco in any form will have to be each person's personal responsibility; the nexus of political agreement of the left and the right.

Drug Addict versus the Finer Things in Life:

An assertion put forth was that since I want nicotine, I'm an addict. May be. Regardless, I'd rather do nothing than a crappy cheap cigar for the nicotine, or a 'smoking mixture' without nicotine, regardless of delivery of that small beer in a gilded hand-crafted 'soulful work of art' stein. I look forward, that looking forward itself life affirming, to my 1792 as a perhaps small but solid satisfying experience of a finer thing in life. Take away the 'fine,' and all that's left is a lot of down with little up.
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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Fri May 29, 2009 12:28 pm

This has the potential for turning controversial; however, I agree with the brother that pointed out the legislators making the laws.

Someone has to be electing them. So the majority of Americans must be non-smokers right? I don't think it will ever be banned because it's just a huge money maker via taxes. In fact, it is going to lead to more taxes. Expect alcohol taxes, sugar taxes (y'all know about the proposal to tax sodas--the non-diet ones?), etc.

People keep voting the way they do lately and maybe tobacco will be ... naw, I won't even say it.

I'm sure this is not the first time I say this, so I will put it in quotations, "the only solace I get is that many [of my local friends] that voted for our current president can no longer afford to smoke."

With the slight increase in prices, I am not as generous as I used to be either with non-forum members.
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HistoryMajor

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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Fri May 29, 2009 12:54 pm

It does not matter who is in power. So long as Ron Paul is not president, tobacco taxes will continue to go up.

We have a Conservative government in Alberta - tobacco taxes are highest in the country...and there are Liberal and Socialist provincial governments currently in power. Also, we have the highest revenue of any province...yet still tobacco taxes are high.

I didn't vote for the Progressive Conservative party, and chances are I never will. Taxes are going to continue to go up on everything. Smokers are easy to pick on for those on the right and the left, and it is unlikely that any government in the world will every change their stance.

...except maybe China, the tobacco producing regions of China set cigarette quotas for all government employees. They had to smoke a certain number of cartons per year.

But, in Canada the legal case for smokers' rights is developing slowly, as anti-smoking organizations transition towards anti-smoker. I don't know how things work in the U.S. as well, but there is always the potential that these things are in flux. Indeed, repealing the smoking bans is one of the elements of the British Tory party platform. So who knows? Smoking has gone through many different stages of popularity, and I highly, highly doubt it will go anywhere.

And even if it is prohibited, I have no problem meeting in a 7-11 parking lot to buy a bag...Very Happy

Quote :

FDA is the Tip of the Healthcare Iceberg:
Very Happy Public health care would assuage those fears!
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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Fri May 29, 2009 1:43 pm

I propose a theme song for our coming Smoking Rights Revolution:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-94688372859167974
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HistoryMajor

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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Fri May 29, 2009 2:07 pm

I like it!
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the macdonald

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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Fri May 29, 2009 2:54 pm

Although I don't see an all out prohibition, the next few years are going to be diffacult on personal freedoms. I think in the next coming years smoking a cigar or pipe is going to be a sign of dissidence. A dunhill might be the purple mohawk of the future. A bunch rowdy youths roming around in smoking jackets stinking of latakia! Enough to make one monicle pop out of place.
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Hermit

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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Fri May 29, 2009 5:24 pm

Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act of 2009 or PACT Act
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:HR01676:@@@L&summ2=m&
They will be coming for us next. Mad
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JohnnyO

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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:03 am

It past and Obama can't wait to sign it

Quote :
No smoking: Historic vote could bring new limits
WASHINGTON – The Senate struck a historic blow against smoking in America Thursday, voting overwhelmingly to give regulators new power to limit nicotine in the cigarettes that kill nearly a half-million people a year, to drastically curtail ads that glorify tobacco and to ban flavored products aimed at spreading the habit to young people.

President Barack Obama, who has spoken of his own struggle to quit smoking, said he was eager to sign the legislation, and the House planned a vote for Friday. Cigarette foes said the measure would not only cut deaths but reduce the $100 billion in annual health care costs linked to tobacco.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090612/ap_on_go_co/us_fda_tobacco;_ylt=AptECMoMvLuQawWLO9yi5FkDW7oF
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Hermit

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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:45 am

Herzl wrote:
FDA pressure compounded, the big hammer is health care:...

Exactly!
I don't think there will ever be a "ban."
However, Internet sales of tobacco will become a fond memory.
When we get nationalized health care, they will be able
to control every aspect of our lives. The government will
be able to restrict any "unhealthy" behavior.

I recall a candidate saying, sure you can have your
coal fired plants, we'll just tax em till they cry uncle.

"Sure you can smoke, you'll just have to pay more (way more)."
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HoosierPuffer

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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:17 am

"ban" doesn't sell.

However, it will be controlled such that it is banned in practice, just worded differently. It's called deception.

For instance, machine guns aren't banned. But they are so regulated it is incredibly expensive to obtain them. Effectively prohibited.

Watch what they do, not what they say.

The federal government has long since outgrown its constitutionally-allowed role, strong-arming state governments and now controlling every detail of your life from the gas you can put in your car, the type of food you may eat, the non-lethal products you may consume, the way that power can be generated for your home, the features of the cars you can drive, the schools your children can attend, whether or not you can protect yourself with a firearm and what type.

Now, it is borrowing money from you to take over parts of the private economy, setting pay restrictions on corporations' top performers, but telling others that we need to get out of debt.

It is socialism and authoritarianism in deed, but not word.

Hail, Marx!
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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:45 am

Hermit wrote:
Herzl wrote:
FDA pressure compounded, the big hammer is health care:...

Exactly!

When we get nationalized health care, they will be able
to control every aspect of our lives. The government will
be able to restrict any "unhealthy" behavior.



"

I hope that includes taxing donut shops because peoples' asses keep getting bigger...
I thought I was losing weight, but it seems that I only appear smaller because those around me are getting bigger.
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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:05 am

I didn't want to say anything for fear of sounding ignorant, but I just read an article that stated something I was thinking. If the FDA is given oversight on tobacco, wouldn't the younger generation see them as safer?

Also, I find it interesting that Phillip Morris supports this.
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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:53 am

Texas Outlaw wrote:
Also, I find it interesting that Phillip Morris supports this.
Many believe this is just another BIG Corporation with their hands in the government. The fear is the small producers (C&D & GLP among others) would bear the brunt of new regulations, while the big guys could keep on producing their crap.
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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:04 pm

EJinVA wrote:
Texas Outlaw wrote:
Also, I find it interesting that Phillip Morris supports this.
Many believe this is just another BIG Corporation with their hands in the government. The fear is the small producers (C&D & GLP among others) would bear the brunt of new regulations, while the big guys could keep on producing their crap.

If I'm understanding this correct, they produce the most popular cigarettes right now (Marlboro). So by supporting a bill that limits advertising, they are essentially cutting off the other companys' (mainly the ones that produce Camel) means of getting their product in the public eye.

In fact, those opposed to the bill are referring to it as the Marlboro Monopoly Act since they will have a collar on the market.
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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:10 pm

Texas Outlaw wrote:
Marlboro Monopoly Act

That sounds very appropriate.
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Justpipes
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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:33 pm

EJinVA wrote:
Texas Outlaw wrote:
Also, I find it interesting that Phillip Morris supports this.
Many believe this is just another BIG Corporation with their hands in the government. The fear is the small producers (C&D & GLP among others) would bear the brunt of new regulations, while the big guys could keep on producing their crap.

Answer

I'm sure Virginia has one. If they don't you can join us!
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JohnnyO

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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:44 am

I've already heard that they plan on getting rid of flavored cigarettes...perhaps they will rid flavored pipe tobacco?
I can forsee it now...Obama Brand pipe tobacco...sweet with lots of bite, but hey its a change
and the socialiszed dr only allows you one 10g pouch a month
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Herzl

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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:29 am

The Plan is to Ban Nicotine

From the 'debate' on FDA regulation in the House of Representatives, and considering the orchestra of recent tobacco related legislation, nicotine, not tobacco per se, is to be prohibited. This is to be the model for interceding into sugar and caffeine food content. The mantra is that children should not be at risk of getting addicted. The plan is to remove the addicting ingredient (nicotine, sugar, or caffeine) and you can 'taste' all the small beer nicotine-free 'herbal smoking mixtures' you want. Aromatherapy.

American Justice for Sale, Big Tobacco Can Pay

As is well known in our system of justice, we are all equal, some (Phillip Morris) more than others (i.e. Peretti's). Big tobacco has the money to create fiduciary 'personal working relationships' with the FDA inspectors and regulators. FDA oversight of perishable food inspection is Escherichia coli and Salmonella ludicrous, drug approval processes and accessibility, all greased by, not bribery of course, but something..., let's call it 'good will.' With enough Durst money, murder in Texas gets a 'tsk' and probation for mutilation of a corpse.

Philip Morris Will Make Big Money

This is favorable to Philip Morris because they have the laboratories and money to make the 'food label' spectrographic nicotine content packaging disclosures. From their website, "PM USA has worked with the FTC on this topic for many years and remains committed to working with the FTC and other federal authorities to identify and adopt a standardized testing methodology that improves on the Cambridge Filter Method." In addition 'a low-nicotine cigarette test-marketed by Philip Morris in the early 1990s' as a vehicle for smoking cessation would be a ready profit opportunity under the imposition of lower and lower nicotine levels. Big brother is going to force America to quit smoking. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/02/020214075903.htm It's even better that the federal government will take care of their marketing. The issue that FDA approval may be interpreted as conferring credibility to some (Philip Morris) tobacco products has been raised. True, but the trade off for the feds is their empowerment to first direct disclosure, then control and progressively reduce how much nicotine you can have. The operative word is power. Public perception isn't as important as some Fed sitting in a tobacco related business's office drooling to bring the full force of the federal government down if you insist on delivering nicotine, endangering poorly parented, helpless children. O, the children.

Reynold's Smokeless, Nicotine Bad

Reynold's smokeless candied nicotine delivery won't be FDA approved because some pierced and tatted child wanting nicotine with their Red Bull may become a smoker. It doesn't matter that you're not going to get lung or mouth or throat cancer from a candied lozenge, or 'energy' drink, low calorie available, the proximate enemy is not cancer, or emphysema, but addiction to nicotine. The political right having promoted marijuana as a gateway drug to 'harder stuff' for as long as we can remember cannot find an argument against the political left juggernaut now. Who wants to deny that the gateway drug to smoking is nicotine? The same rationale that everyone who smokes a joint will end up shooting heroin; initially seduced by smokeless nicotine candy today, little Suzy will be hot-boxing a terrorist Cuban Pyramid every hour tomorrow, and Afghani hookah opium the day after. The left would just as righteously slap that disgusting cigarette, pipe or cigar out of your mouth as protect a woman's right to choose abortion while you are not to have the right to smoke as both the political right and left are determined that you cannot smoke a joint with your highball. As if. People are funny. In politics, nothing has to make sense but the vote count. O, the children.

Additives Perceptions and Disclosure

The volume and ingenuity of cigarette additives is nothing short of amazing. Manufacturers will have to disclose what's in it, similar to the Danish practice. Esoterica cannot sell Penzance in Denmark because they can't disclose. They would pass the low nicotine level with flying colors, but it will take too much money to answer the question of the health effects of smoking that secret oil, whatever it is. Moreover, it wouldn't be a secret anymore. In favor of propylene glycol-based aromatics is the understanding that there are no known adverse health effects, beyond that expected of tobacco. Traditional English and the Perique processes for example have the defense that they are not intended to manipulate composition 'unnaturally.'

Loose bulk pipe tobacco, as 'unpackaged,' is either going to have a transition period to create adequate 'disclosure packaging,' stopped by Customs, or channeled through 'licensed' tobacconists who themselves will be responsible for nicotine content disclosure and client age requirements. I hope this will be low priority.

If they will bring out the Army over smokeless tobacco, consider being careful pushing the cache of the piper or premium cigar smoker as more attractive or sophisticated than the cigarette smoker or spitters. This will only bring in the image police charged to discredit all nicotine use in the totality. Never forget that from their point of view, all nicotine use is reprehensible, it isn't even an issue of smoking or chewing per se. What promise can be made that smoking low-nicotine herbal smoking mixture won't lead to smoking 'the stronger stuff?'

Unsolicited GL Pease and C&D Advice: Tobacco Easier to Export than Import

The smart domestic producer and blender move is to go international, the sooner the better. As America's standard of living is progressively equalized to the developing world, the developing and third world already spending 10% of their per capita income on tobacco products, it just makes good business sense to establish a market for 'quality' in China and India for example, offices in Mumbai and Hong Kong. The emerging middle and upper classes of those behemoth countries are the market of their future profitability, without all this politically correct Victorian hand wringing in America. They have that desire for the 'finer things in life' and the money to pay. With mandatory disclosure, the domestic effort should be to have natural 'additive free' tobacco processes accepted, and not in the same class as cigarette rapid nicotine delivery. Hopefully, by the time the feds get around to full-fledged harassment of pipe tobacco, Chinese penchant for intellectual property infringement and product adulteration a given risk, they will have established their overseas business. The big tobacco profit model is already out of the United States.

eCigarettes: Brave New World

It's hip to be square. I hadn't heard of smokeless nicotine delivery devices from China until I started reading about tobacco legislation. As HistoryMajor joked, all too close to the truth, a laugh to keep from crying, meeting someone in a parking lot to buy nicotine may be inevitable for some. Nicotine is known as one of the most addictive drugs in existence. They're right about one thing, for most of us, including me; it won't be worth the hassle. You get to enjoy the stress of being criminals in pursuit of your stress reliever. Then you get to stress about passing your nicotine drug test to keep your job. Planning far different from taxing, they intend to force nicotine sugar and caffeine content down. There is a prohibition coming, the black market already gearing up, already here. Maybe you'll even get to sign a disclosure form that releases your health insurance carrier while you're taking delivery of that box of Maple bars. I hope you like NutraSweet, Virginia Slims, and decaf.

The quasi criminalization of nicotine may serve as a model for a form of twilight-zone legalization of other illicit drugs. Everybody knows the prohibition didn't work. Politically however, that doesn't matter. The hypocrisy of legal alcohol compared to illegal marijuana is staggering.

Good News and Kudos

The good news, our TAD has been officially cured. It isn't a disorder anymore, it's prudently storing nuts for the winter. Kudos to those who have established storage that will last. For the rest of us, qui vivra verra.
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HistoryMajor

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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:28 pm

Quote :
I've already heard that they plan on getting rid of flavored cigarettes...perhaps they will rid flavored pipe tobacco?
It has happened here already, and it is also moving towards flavoured cigarillos...some BS about the packs looking like iPods and stuff.

As for the nicotine, I'd probably keep smoking cleansed tobacco! Last time I checked nicotine was the least of our worries when it comes to the contents of tobacco smoke.

Herzl: Fantastic post. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:19 pm

You don't recall, big tobacco testified before Congress that nicotine is NOT and addictive substance Laughing

HM you are correct, it is the tars and other substances caused by the combustion of tobacco (and all the flavor enhancers) that are the main cause for health concerns.

A partical list of what is in a 'typical cigarette'

The addition of Corn Silk is a surprise, I smoked Corn Silk cigarettes as a kid cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Tobacco Prohibition Coming?   Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:28 am

Justpipes wrote:
EJinVA wrote:
Texas Outlaw wrote:
Also, I find it interesting that Phillip Morris supports this.
Many believe this is just another BIG Corporation with their hands in the government. The fear is the small producers (C&D & GLP among others) would bear the brunt of new regulations, while the big guys could keep on producing their crap.

Answer

I'm sure Virginia has one. If they don't you can join us!

Old Va does.
http://www.virginiacitizenmilitia.org/
I especially appreciate this view: "namely that both parties are controlled by the same elites so that voters are always under the erroneous impression that they can vote the scoundrels out. Playing the Democrat vs. Republican (us vs. them) game is to subject one’s self to the old divide-and-conquer tactic." (about three para. down)
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