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Ol'Dawg

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PostSubject: Gun control in Switzerland   Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:11 pm



Jim
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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:30 pm

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be

to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows

that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races

to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so

doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply

of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the

overthrow of any sovereignty."
- Adolf Hitler
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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:36 pm

The real meaning of Gun control.






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Joseph76

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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:05 pm

I've only visited Switzerland once but what I quickly came away with was... the Swiss are a highly educated group of people who value freedom but also care about their neighbors. I think Education is the key.
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Al in Canada

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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:05 am

Interesting country and people the Swiss. Four official languages, they use a form of direct democracy for part of their government, with nation wide "town" meetings, and universal male military service.

That military service ends up with everyone being a member of the reserve, and they must maintain their personal weapon, do a summer camp. You note the man points to four different generations of the family military guns in the video.

Their military policy is to mount a small unit defense upon mobilization. Helps to have a strong defensive terrain, but no one has felt ready to take them on in recent times.
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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:18 am

They were pretty bad dudes in antiquity also.. I hear tale the Pope still likes to keep a few of those Swiss fellers around.
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Al in Canada

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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:42 am

puros_bran wrote:
They were pretty bad dudes in antiquity also.. I hear tale the Pope still likes to keep a few of those Swiss fellers around.

Yeah, you got the post card types, with pikes and lace collars and puffy pants, and then you got the rest of them with very modern weaponry that you never see
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Swiss_Guard_2.JPG
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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:58 am

Yeah they use the 550... Badarse weapon..

From what I understood they have all been under som e pretty serious training the past 5-6 years, weapons & tactics, CQB, Martial Arts.. Looks like they are trying to make them 'real' body guards.
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Al in Canada

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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:21 am

puros_bran wrote:
Yeah they use the 550... Badarse weapon..

From what I understood they have all been under som e pretty serious training the past 5-6 years, weapons & tactics, CQB, Martial Arts.. Looks like they are trying to make them 'real' body guards.

My understanding is that they have always been a competent and trained military force, with a visible showcase public presence. Kind of like the Marine color guard at Arlington, Marines first, and then selected to make a showpiece for the public. They look like show pieces, but they are all trained Marines first and foremost.

And I think their tightening up of their security measures goes back to the 1970 knife attack, although it may predate that.
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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:26 am

Yes they have but after the murder-suicide of the commandant and his gay lover a few years back they have been kickin it up a notch.
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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:39 pm

Gun Control in Texas:

You stay the fuck of my property and I'll contol myself and not shoot you in the ass.

I am THE Texas Outlaw and I approve of this message.


And If you ain't down with that, I got two words for you....
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Al in Canada

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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:41 am

Texas Outlaw wrote:
Gun Control in Texas:

You stay the fuck of my property and I'll contol myself and not shoot you in the ass.

I am THE Texas Outlaw and I approve of this message.


And If you ain't down with that, I got two words for you....

different set of assumptions in the two societies. In the U.S. the settlers were always out racing the law, first there were people, then the law when they got organized, if they did. Until the law came along justice was strictly the concept honourable people decided to enforce and everyman felt he was a legitimate source for the rules of the law.

In Canada the frontier was opened to settlers by the government, the laws and courts accompanied or preceded the settlers. And the Mounties did some amazing things with very few men, and little enough violence.

End result, in Canada there is a tradition of relying on the police to protect the community, and the courts to enforce just laws, contrasted to the American basic distrust of government power (as seen in the Constitutional checks and balances), and a reliance on the personal enforcement of justice.

In Canada you cannot assume that someone coming on to your property means you harm, and even if they do, your response has to be measured to the threat. Shooting at, let alone shooting and hitting, someone stealing a chicken from my hen house is not an appropriate level of response to the crime. If someone broke into my house and was threatening me with a knife and I shot him and put him down, it would not be appropriate to finish him off. Very civilized don't you know.

And before you fire a broadside aback, realize the system works. the homicide rate per 100,000 in Montreal is (2.6), Vancouver (3.1), Toronto (3.3) [2007]
[2007] Compared with homicide rate for Atlanta (19.7), Boston (10.3), Los Angeles (10.0), New York City (6.3).

Most threatening people who come onto my property, as a rule, are "used" religion salesmen. Misguided people who go away when asked. Haven't had to resort to my last resort, "I only discuss God nude, can't wear any prideful garments when seeking God's truth." LOL
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Doc Manhattan

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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:56 am

New York City isn't a fair example--the gun control laws there are substantially stricter than Canada's... not to mention that there's a bigger population than all but one Canadian province, crammed into an area smaller than some cornfields. It's just always going to be a statistical exception.
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Al in Canada

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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:18 am

Doc M,

NYC doesn't come off all that bad, worse than the smaller Canadian cities, but look how much better than the other American cities. And no the "Sullivan Act" (or its successor) is no where near as stringent as Canadian gun laws.

I would have to really jump through a lot of hoops to get a hand gun here, and it would have to be kept under lock and key, as would its ammo, and you need a specific permit to move it from storage say to a range for shooting. And no deviations in the transportation route to or from would be allowed, or be subject to arrest. There is no such thing for the common man as a carry permit.

If i possessed a hand gun, and someone broke into my house and was armed, I would have to unlock the gun cabinet, then unlock the trigger guard, then load the gun before i could use it. LOL

Luckily this is not a scenario that is likely to happen here, unless I happen to be a drug dealer, and they don't seem to care much about the gun laws. Seized guns in the States are generally auctioned off, and thus go back into the system, unless they are patently illegal like a Browning 50 cal MG, here they destroyed.

The really big difference is here if your really obnoxious brother-in-law takes the turkey drumstick off your plate at Thanksgiving dinner you might punch him in the nose or go at him with the carving knife, in Buffalo or Detroit you go get the pistol out of the night stand in your bedroom and have at him from across the room. Similar scenario if you catch your wife in bed with the next door neighbor.
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Justpipes
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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:17 am

Texas Outlaw wrote:
Gun Control in Texas:

You stay the fuck of my property and I'll contol myself and not shoot you in the ass.

I am THE Texas Outlaw and I approve of this message.


And If you ain't down with that, I got two words for you....

I vote for the Texas gun control philosphy!
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ftrplt

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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:21 pm

Ahem......To return to Switzerland from Tejas (also known as Baja Oklahoma in at least one state!! Laughing ). IIRC, the Swiss-required male military duty is also tied to full voting-rights citizenship. No duteee, no voteee!! This may have changed, but during my time flying around the NATO countries, this was the practice/law. FTRPLT
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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:48 pm

[quote="Al in Canada"]
Texas Outlaw wrote:


different set of assumptions in the two societies. In the U.S. the settlers were always out racing the law, first there were people, then the law when they got organized, if they did. Until the law came along justice was strictly the concept honourable people decided to enforce and everyman felt he was a legitimate source for the rules of the law.

In Canada the frontier was opened to settlers by the government, the laws and courts accompanied or preceded the settlers. And the Mounties did some amazing things with very few men, and little enough violence.

End result, in Canada there is a tradition of relying on the police to protect the community, and the courts to enforce just laws, contrasted to the American basic distrust of government power (as seen in the Constitutional checks and balances), and a reliance on the personal enforcement of justice.

In Canada you cannot assume that someone coming on to your property means you harm, and even if they do, your response has to be measured to the threat. Shooting at, let alone shooting and hitting, someone stealing a chicken from my hen house is not an appropriate level of response to the crime. If someone broke into my house and was threatening me with a knife and I shot him and put him down, it would not be appropriate to finish him off. Very civilized don't you know.

And before you fire a broadside aback, realize the system works. the homicide rate per 100,000 in Montreal is (2.6), Vancouver (3.1), Toronto (3.3) [2007]
[2007] Compared with homicide rate for Atlanta (19.7), Boston (10.3), Los Angeles (10.0), New York City (6.3).

Most threatening people who come onto my property, as a rule, are "used" religion salesmen. Misguided people who go away when asked. Haven't had to resort to my last resort, "I only discuss God nude, can't wear any prideful garments when seeking God's truth." LOL

Al, look at your stats. They are from cities that have some of the STRICTEST gun control laws in the USA!!! The reason why they are so high is because THE VICTIMS DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO LEGAL FIREARMS IN THESE CITIES!!!! THAT'S WHY THEY ARE VICTIMS!!!! Pull some stats from cities / states where there is full carry / ccw laws that enable law abiding citizens to protect themselves and you'll see number as good (if not better) than Canada!!! Once again, it's an unfair compasrison by the "anti-gun" lobby (US & Canada).

Granted, the attitude of "if you come onto my property, I'll kill you" is way over the top and is ILLEGAL and will open you up to huge liability in most of the U.S. Texas, is a whole different story altogether.......... Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:34 pm

[quote="DoverPipes"]
Al in Canada wrote:
Texas Outlaw wrote:


different set of assumptions in the two societies. In the U.S. the settlers were always out racing the law, first there were people, then the law when they got organized, if they did. Until the law came along justice was strictly the concept honourable people decided to enforce and everyman felt he was a legitimate source for the rules of the law.

In Canada the frontier was opened to settlers by the government, the laws and courts accompanied or preceded the settlers. And the Mounties did some amazing things with very few men, and little enough violence.

End result, in Canada there is a tradition of relying on the police to protect the community, and the courts to enforce just laws, contrasted to the American basic distrust of government power (as seen in the Constitutional checks and balances), and a reliance on the personal enforcement of justice.

In Canada you cannot assume that someone coming on to your property means you harm, and even if they do, your response has to be measured to the threat. Shooting at, let alone shooting and hitting, someone stealing a chicken from my hen house is not an appropriate level of response to the crime. If someone broke into my house and was threatening me with a knife and I shot him and put him down, it would not be appropriate to finish him off. Very civilized don't you know.

And before you fire a broadside aback, realize the system works. the homicide rate per 100,000 in Montreal is (2.6), Vancouver (3.1), Toronto (3.3) [2007]
[2007] Compared with homicide rate for Atlanta (19.7), Boston (10.3), Los Angeles (10.0), New York City (6.3).

Most threatening people who come onto my property, as a rule, are "used" religion salesmen. Misguided people who go away when asked. Haven't had to resort to my last resort, "I only discuss God nude, can't wear any prideful garments when seeking God's truth." LOL

Al, look at your stats. They are from cities that have some of the STRICTEST gun control laws in the USA!!! The reason why they are so high is because THE VICTIMS DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO LEGAL FIREARMS IN THESE CITIES!!!! THAT'S WHY THEY ARE VICTIMS!!!! Pull some stats from cities / states where there is full carry / ccw laws that enable law abiding citizens to protect themselves and you'll see number as good (if not better) than Canada!!! Once again, it's an unfair compasrison by the "anti-gun" lobby (US & Canada).

Granted, the attitude of "if you come onto my property, I'll kill you" is way over the top and is ILLEGAL and will open you up to huge liability in most of the U.S. Texas, is a whole different story altogether.......... Rolling Eyes

Why do you think Al went to Canada? They have that whole rose colored glasses thing going on!
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HistoryMajor

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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:50 pm

Quote :
Pull some stats from cities / states where there is full carry / ccw laws that enable law abiding citizens to protect themselves and you'll see number as good (if not better) than Canada!!!
Now, correct me if I'm wrong....the understanding of the difference between guns in Canada and the US is the number of deaths as a result. That is, gun violence is way higher in the United States than Canada, and gun possession is way higher in the US as well. Long guns we might come off relatively equitable, especially out West, but in terms of handguns, the comparison hardly even exists.

I guess what I'm saying is instead of looking at homicide rates, it's worth looking at the rates of gun violence. In my view that probably provides a very different picture. *Shrug* But this one ain't in the Rubber Room.

In terms of Switzerland, it probably comes down to a different culture than the US, and even Canada.

P.S. JP, we don't need rose coloured glasses for things to be fine north of the 49th. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:14 pm

Since violent crimes are a smaller fraction of all crimes, the difference between the two countries is less than the homicide rate might make it seem, and the overall rates are generally close (see Crime in the United States).

Furthermore, in recent years, the gap in violent crime rates between the United States and Canada has narrowed due to a precipitous drop in the violent crime rate in the U.S. For example, while the aggravated assault rate declined for most of 1990s in the U.S. and was 324 per 100,000 in 2000, the aggravated assault rate in Canada remained relatively steady throughout and was 143 per 100,000 in 2000. In other areas, the U.S. had a faster decline. For instance, whereas the murder rate in Canada declined by 36% between 1991 and 2004, the U.S. murder rate declined by 44%. [8] Surprisingly, both Saskatoon and Regina consistently have Violent Crime rates that would place them among the 10 most violent cities in the US, and often individually exceed larger US centers in terms of Total numbers for Aggravated Assaults and Robbery.
In 2004 the murder rate in the U.S. dipped below 6 per 100,000, for the first time since 1966.[8]

Canada\'s total population (2009 Estimate): 34,630,000
United States total poulation (2009 Estimate): 309,162,581

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada

We\'ve argued this before. The bottom line for me is, I\'d rather have the right & ability to carry a firearm and be able to defend myself if I needed to. Like the saying says, it\'s better to have it and NOT USE it as opposed to needing it and NOT HAVING IT.

PS: From personal experience: I have had people attempt to rob me in New Orleans, New York City, Baltimore & Boston. (All wonderful cities that have STRICT gun control I might add Razz ) Each time I was prepared and had my firearm ready and available, thus ending the attempts. I was lucky, two had knives and the others were strong arm / intimidation / group attacks. I simply had the superior firepower. In all cases, the \"local youths\" were held for police and subsequently arrested for their misdeeds.

I never fired a shot, lucky for them. I have also stopped several crimes in progress where others were being victimized (at least four attempted rapes, several violent felony assaults, one arson attempt, and a parental \"kidnapping\" in a shopping mall) This is over a period of time in excess of 22 years!!!

I will also add that I do have the ability to carry firearms throughout the US due to my occupation & the fact that I am also CCW licensed (as a private citizen in several states, in addition to my occupation). This is one of the things that I am glad for. I do feel sorry for those who don\'t have the same abilities as I do........

STAY SAFE OUT THERE!!! (Including you guys in Canada Very Happy )
PPS: Al, I know what you are saying. If we had the answers, we wouldn't be here talking about it.


Last edited by DoverPipes on Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Al in Canada

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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:28 pm

JustPipes said:
Quote :
Why do you think Al went to Canada? They have that whole rose colored glasses thing going on!

Not at all, this is just what i found when I got here. The observations come from trying to figure out how two outwardly similar neighboring societies came to be so different in some ways.

I grew up in a gun carrying culture, and had on rare occasions carried a short gun for "protection". There were areas in my home town I would not have ventured after dark armed or not.

In Toronto there are now some areas like that, but that has changed since I have lived here, mostly the result of Asian gangs who came in as "refugees", and set up shop and are fighting over drug dealing.

When I first came to Canada there wasn't a place in Toronto that I felt unsafe to visit, except maybe the docks, at late night, and I would suggest that is true of any port city in the world.

Dover Pipes wrote:
Al, look at your stats. They are from cities that have some of the STRICTEST gun control laws in the USA!!! The reason why they are so high is because THE VICTIMS DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO LEGAL FIREARMS IN THESE CITIES!!!! THAT'S WHY THEY ARE VICTIMS!!!! Pull some stats from cities / states where there is full carry / ccw laws that enable law abiding citizens to protect themselves and you'll see number as good (if not better) than Canada!!! Once again, it's an unfair compasrison by the "anti-gun" lobby (US & Canada).

DP,

Someone may have cooked the stats, but not me. I think that the stats came from Wiki article, but am not sure. What is important here is that the number of crimes involving guns is much, much lower here, and so are the number of "gun accidents". I follow US news from Detroit, and while Detroit may not be the poster child of American cities, there are a disturbingly frequent stories about "accidental" shootings involving children playing with their parents guns, or kids taking the guns to school,, etc.

I don't even agree with all the Canadian gun laws, especially as they apply to long guns. I have a "hobby farm" and have kept chickens, which means you have varmit problems from time to time. A rifle or a shotgun is just another tool for any one raising any type of animals, whether the varmits be 'coons, coyotes, wild dogs, etc. The laws tend to be written by people who live in cities, and they don't have the perception of guns as tools, so their legislation tends to reflect this blindness.

I wasn't even proposing gun control for the US. The point of the Swiss situation is that every household is "armed" if they have had a member who has done their military service. You noted the gun storage locker that was shown in the video, so they probably require safe storage too. And all the Swiss would have under gone training in gun handling and marksmanship. I have no idea what their laws are on short guns.

The videos that followed about the fast draw artists were fascinating, and the handgun holds a mystic place in the American self image of its history. A kind of skewed image, since the reality was far different from the Hollywood version (which somehow we tend to accept without question). A friend who was a very serious student of the history of the American West noted that most gunfights were won not by the best shot, but the fastest on the reload. It being very difficult for most people to hit much of anything with a pistol at any distance, let alone a target that is moving and shooting back. According to him the "typical" gunfight had both guys emptying their guns in futile fire, and then one guy shooting the other because he got reloaded first. The guys like Hickock who were accurate with a handgun were the exception, not the rule.

I don't know what the answer is, but it isn't seeing a threat in everyone who comes to knock on your door. The America I grew up in we never locked the door unless we were going to be away for an extended period. I never had a door key as a child.
My parents might have been critical of the party in power, but there was no question of thinking that either party was "making war" on the people. It seems a lot of Americans have the expectation that they are going to called upon to use their guns, whether against a criminal threat or "to water the tree of liberty.." against their government. And its not like we in Canada will not be affected if things go to hell in a hand basket in the US, plus all my family lives there still.
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HistoryMajor

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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:25 am

DP...not disputing your stories, but I do find that interesting. Admittedly, I've only been around for 20 years, but the only violence I have ever seen was police beating people up. I had the misfortune of witnessing downtown beat cops attack a woman with Down Syndrome who was visiting a festival from a group home when I was about 16, but other than that, nothing that I can think of other than stupid things like bar fights.

It's just an interesting thing that you have personally experienced so much crime, whereas I bet if we took the sum total of all Canadians on here, it still wouldn't add up to what you have had to deal with.

As Al was saying, I can't think of very many places in Edmonton where I would not walk alone at night. Maybe downtown in the older areas, but also as Al said, that's true of every town. In fact, I find it much more uncomfortable to be out in broad daylight in Phoenix and see people carrying weapons. I have no idea what those people are like, what they're capable of or thinking, and I find that to be a disconcerting thing. It's probably mostly a difference in political culture, because it's amazing to me that you guys are discomforted by walking down the street, and seeing people who have the ability to kill you with so little effort.

*Shrug* I guess maybe that is a question - why doesn't that make you uncomfortable?

And this was the sort of statistic that I was referring to:

Quote :
Approximately 70 percent of the total murders in the U.S. are committed with firearms, versus about 30 percent in Canada.[11]

And murder rates in the US are still much higher than Canada.

Anyways, it's an interesting discussion. I don't want to debate it, I just find it a fascinating difference between our countries.
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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:43 am

One thing to remember HM.. Dover is in the Law Enforcement field..he will see things that will make a normal person throw up.


And interesting you bring up cops beating a down syndrome person.. Contrary to what Babylon has programmed us to believe that is exactly the type of tyranny that the Second Amendment is designed to suppress.. The ability to defend myself from/ bring harm upon other citizens is a secondary and unassociated argument from either perspective... The original intent (from what I gather) was to provide the citizen the ability to defend himself from/bring harm upon the State. It was intended that the State would fear the people, not that the people would fear the State.
How twisted that the tables have turned so far that the actual verbalization of that thought places the citizen in danger of the tyranny of the State.
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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:48 am

Sure, we kill people with guns.
But if we didn't have guns, we'd still kill em. Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Gun control in Switzerland   Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:52 pm

HistoryMajor, The difference between my experiences and yours are different,, granted. Many of those situations were being in bad areas at the wrong time. The Baltimore incident was me simply being a lost "tourist" walking from my hotel to the Inner Harbor and not knowing that I was walking through a bad neighborhood. The "local youth" saw an opportunity to go after people who were obviously lost. I can safely say that I am generally aware of where "I can & can't go" in areas I am familiar with.

As Puros_bran stated (I thank you for the back up PB), there are many things that I have encountered that most people never will (either in the US or Canada) see, or be a part of. I do tend to get involved if I see somone in distress, where as you may run the other way. That doesn't make me any better than you, just different. I am sure you have never been involved in a situation where you had to defend (partner, friend, neighbor, etc) somone else from a knife / gun wielding thug. I have. Once again that's my choice. Not everyone (in your world or my world) would make those tough choices in life.

As far as cops beating a girl with down syndrome, I take it that happened in Canada.
I can't speak for or defend the actions of others. Based on your statement, any normal person would be horrified by that.
Just playing devil's advocate, don't always believe what you see. You don't always know the whole story...............

A little more time on this planet may just make you feel slightly different on topics like this.
I always liked the saying, "A liberal is someone who has never been the victim of a crime" Razz

PS: I would still help you if you asked for my help, w/o any reservations!!!! STAY SAFE IN TH NORTHLANDS!!!!!!!
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