pipe elitism

Subject: Re: pipe elitism Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:35 am

I can honestly say that I am quite jealous of many of the pipes I see displayed here. However, it’s not a case of anger where I feel less than that particular owner or inadequate in any way it is simply that I too wish to own something of a given quality. I also know that with a new job and the many things a person my age needs one of a kind hand carved pipes and well aged tobacco are not a serious priority. My pipes work for me and to be totally honest I do not feel that I am an accomplished nor experienced smoker to truly make the most out of an elite pipe. I guess I project the idea that I need to cut my teeth on some more middle of the road briar before I step onto the porch with the big boys. I know that just because you pay x amount for a pipe guarantees nothing about its smoking quality. I still approach them as I do any luxury item; it’s not for me until I can truly afford it and when I feel I am in that projected league.
As far as the coolness factor most people in my age group, no matter the beauty of the pipe or the quality of the leaf burning in it, find a pipe cool. This may be one of the underlying reasons I picked up the pipe in the first place. It also earned me the nickname “Oddball.” Now that I have started to ramble all I can say is I am ok with my projected elitism though I cannot put it as eloquently nor as well articulated as Yak and this posting may be waste of time to read.

Subject: Re: pipe elitism Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:40 pm

LOL.......
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Subject: Re: pipe elitism Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:50 pm

Elitism.... is smoking a pipe.

Subject: Re: pipe elitism Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:01 pm

An interesting "take" on things, Oddball. I look at most of the pipe porn people post here and marvel that grown men have actually paid money for it. If it's the good stuff to them, more power to 'em. Glad they're happy. Reminds me of a friend who could only become (how to put this nicely ?) "enthused" by a woman if she were heavily made up, wearing jewelry, and clad in a garter belt, stockings and high heels. (Not that there's anything wrong with that). Whatever works for you, I guess.

I wonder now, coming to think of it, whether he might not have had this same kind of association forged in his mind between the trappings and the quality of the interaction. For him, this was the good stuff. I do know that the most memorably great smokes I've had over the years have mostly been in old, "cheap" pipes, and that I've passed along "better" ones (Dunhills, Lane Charatans, an old Sasieni 4-D and a Winslow come to mind) because they just didn't deliver what the Killarney and the Kildare do.

By this point, my strategy is to snag an appealing old-timer by a company that doesn't have much current snot value, send it off to George Dibos for a custom stem (and airway, when necessary) that's opened to Rad Davis specs, and just bliss out with it. The cost of the stem and the work generally exceeds the base cost of the pipe, but you can only get off so cheap anyway.

An approach that's not for everybody, granted.

Then again, same with the garter-belt-&-stockings trip.

Not as exciting maybe, but what keys excitement differs. What's exciting here at the moment is an old, smooth Caminetto. So caked with crud it took two days to clean, and a tooth hole in the stem I've covered with clear packaging tape. Hardly anybody else even bid on it. What a great smoking pipe !

What a Face

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Subject: Re: pipe elitism Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:14 pm

Using Yaks own analogy, I think what he's saying is once ya get a new set o bloomers on Granny she's quite sexy..... affraid

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Subject: Re: pipe elitism Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:33 pm

I'll take your word on that, PeeBee.

But I can tell you that the right stem can do wonders for how cool a pipe looks. Shocked

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Subject: Re: pipe elitism Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:28 pm

Yak, any one of us might choose to drive ourselves crazy exploring the differences between what we know, what we believe, and what we project. Most of us - myself included - don't find those distinctions useful in conversation since any number of epistomological fallacies might be harnessed to impeach any statement we make. If philosophy has contributed anything to self-awareness, it is that a thinking person can have very little confidence in anything we might profess to *know*.

What we believe is something altogether different. And for that we can rely only on the integrity we impute to or infer from the source of any statement. In other words, we consider the source then try to determine the extent to which someone is playing games with our head or trying to have an authentic conversation on the subject at hand.

I cannot speak for Greg Pease but I have passing familiarity with my own motives with respect to how I participate in the pipe hobby.

As someone who grew up in rural Wyoming, I have little or no patience with pretense. And, as somebody who has never managed to be "cool" in my entire life, I feel somewhat safe in saying that I am, if anything, someone who finds the engines of fashion, trendiness, or cool somewhere along the continuum between amusing and repugnant.

It is just my opinion, but I observe that most people who follow fashion for fashion's sake either lack taste or prefer to substitute someone else's good opinion for their own standards so that they might find safety in other peoples' numbers.

I bridle at the notion that either Greg or I are "cool-makers." I may have no control over the outcome that my enthusiasm for a pipe or artisan inspires, but I can speak to my motivations. My intention is to celebrate good hard work, beautiful design, exquisite execution, and good luck with materials.

When I began collecting some years ago I decided that I would champion North American carvers. When I started there was a conspicuous absence of respect for them. Though many considered their work derivative and only good at best, it was my opinion that some of them were accomplishing wonderful things at fair prices. I couldn't afford to try and collect the best of the Danes (and other Scandinavians), but I *could* afford to support North American carvers and I felt wholly within my integrity in so doing.

When I do focus on someone who I believe is making a contribution, it is because I want to see that person receive the support and acknowledgment that they deserve. I have more respect for my fellow collectors and hobbyists than to believe that they would accept my opinion without subjecting it to their own standards and requirements.

I also intentionally speak up for artisans who are not charging outrageous prices for their pipes. I don't have much of an audience, but the people who do read my blog deserve to know that it is possible to buy an outrageously well-made pipe for a fair price.

I spent many years as a professional artist and, as such, I felt the cynical scrutiny of people who couldn't do what I did passing judgment on whether I did it acceptably or poorly. I know what it is to sweat The New York Times' judgment of my talent and taste. I know what it means to be an honest artist. I know what it means to work hard. I also know what it means to fail any of those tests - having failed a few times.

So, if I choose to champion some artisan for doing good work, I do so having paid my dues. I do it honestly. And I do it with a sincere intention to honor someone else for whom I feel respect and admiration.

If this makes me an elitist or a cool-maker in anyone's eyes, then so be it.
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Neill- I definitely think your a cool guy!!

Very Happy

Subject: Re: pipe elitism Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:44 pm

If "cool" strikes a discordant note with you, I'm sorry. It's the only word I seem to be able to come up with that connotes what it looks like from the (possibly warped) perspective on this end -- one that sees human behavior as simply plain old universal human behavior. Most notably, its predisposition to establish fashions and follow leaders while denying -- as if this were some sort of personal insult to it -- that it ever does either. Something like the way a Victorian woman with seven kids would bristle at the suggestion that she'd ever had sex. And exactly as a cartoon from the 1950s encapsulated it in a group of indentically dressed and groomed organization men. Speech balloons : "I'm a rugged individualist." "Same here." "Ditto." "Me too." The self-image at odds with the observable. At least, in the eyes of children and idiots.

Mark Twain would have a field day with this.

For most people, the "critical appraisal" aspect of pipes is a sidecar at best. People approach pipes hoping to fall in love with them. Or at least, in lust. The twenty-five cent term for this condition is "porosity." Like hungry shoppers at the grocery store, they are not only suggestable,* but tend toward sympathetic resonation with credible opinions. For somebody interested in blowsnails who doesn't go to big shows, doesn't live in (or get to) a big city and consequently hasn't seen hundreds of them, taking your word for it is the quickest and surest way to get to the best possible perspective on them in the shortest time.

The identification mechanism is subject to abuse, sure. (Mickey Mantle smokes Camels !) But if NAR says Floogleheimer makes great pipes, and NAR obviously knows what he's talking about, then Floogleheimer it is. You've accomplished what you set out to. Where is there any sort of insult in this ?

Now. What is it that I'm missing or misconstruing ?

*Those obnoxious adjectives that eBay pipe shills load their presentations with WORK often enough that alienating the rest of us doesn't matter.

What a Face

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All the old cliches are true.
That's why they're cliches.

Subject: Re: pipe elitism Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:16 am

While you may have intended no insult and only to share observations about human nature, reading your posts left me feeling like I was cast as a character in unfolding story about pipe elitism. Since most people here don't know me, I thought it important to clarify my values and how I feel about the subject at hand.

Further, if anybody is at fault for my not being known here, it is me. I may have scribbled a lot on my own blog but I haven't posted all that much here and I don't assume that everyone here would make their way to my blog, read it, or have the patience or interest to figure out who I am. People have better things to do with their time.

Yak, you possess more than a smidgen of language facility. I cannot help but believe that you understand how words like "cool" or "elitism" are freighted with meaning. It's the freight that nuances perception. Forgive me if I'm sensitive about how I'm perceived.

In my experience, when somebody is characterized as "elitist" - even innocently - the word implies that "He thinks he's better than the rest of us." I concur completely with your assessment of American culture that egalitarianism is a cardinal value. People who express superior attitudes about themselves may be tolerated in our culture; they may even be respected, but they are seldom liked. My mother taught me never to settle for respect alone when affection was within reach.

You are correct that I find "cool" off-putting for a host of reasons. First, if through my collecting and enthusiasm I am helping make some artisan cool, I am doing that person no favors. "Cool" is incredibly problematic as a marketplace position. Aside from coolness having the half-life of a fruit fly, it trumpets fashionability over virtues like simplicity, durability, uniqueness, memorability, and usefulness. I value the latter and detest the former. I also detest fickleness. Fashion and fickle are nearly interchangeable terms in my book.

From my limited personal experience, cool-hunters value what something looks like almost to the exclusion of how it functions. I make no apologies for being an aesthete. Beauty thrills me. I have learned, however, that the eye becomes inured to beauty. I have also learned that most of us hope that beauty might be evidence of deeper and more meaningful qualities. If I discover those things are absent, beauty becomes little more than a promise-breaker. Have I mentioned that I find "cool" off-putting?

I agree, as well, that the whole notion of collecting anything is problematic. Pipes are no different. The language of collectors brims with ideologies, narratives, and descriptors that are intended to establish the desirability of some pipes over others. Both personal and commercial transactions cannot help but be driven by some degree of success-seeking, even if that success-seeking may be some form of status-seeking otherwise garbed.

A serious and successful collector of Kaywoodies commands no less respect than his counterparts who collect Danish high-grades. Discernment and self-expression are at the very core of any collecting hobby, whether it's snuff boxes, figurines, fountain pens, or pipes. So you are correct in observing that functional elitism fuels the collecting hobby.

Most of us will tolerate this functional elitism as long as the focus is on one object being superior to another. When the focus shifts to one person being better than another, it offends our sensibilities and undermines our community.

One of the reasons I enjoy looking at other collections is that they are a window to someone else's concept of desirability. An outstanding collection - like Cliff Melick's collection of Negoitas, Talberts, and Downies - takes considerable time, work, and taste to assemble. Cliff's collection reveals the substantive difference between deep pockets and a discerning eye. While Cliff is not poor, he is not wealthy either, except in friendship, love, intellect, and integrity. Anybody with means enough can go out and buy a bunch of pipes and call themselves a collector; that is their prerogative.

I would submit, however, that a great collection shows loyalty to certain curatorial principles. It is built on a carefully nurtured relationship of mutual respect with artisans. It is assembled over time and educates its owner as it grows. Most importantly, a great collection is about how wonderful the pieces that comprise it are, not how wonderful the collector is.

Forgive the length of this post. I seem incapable of expressing myself succinctly. It is one of the reasons I am not cool. Windbags never are.
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Neill Archer Roan
www.apasssionforpipes.com

Subject: Re: pipe elitism Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:05 pm

As far as pipe elitism is concerned in the context that this thread started; if you go into a pipe/tobacco shop and the clerks or proprietor act like snobs, turn their noses up, give you the cold shoulder or watch you like a hawk as if you are too poor and they need to keep an eye on you, then just slap the hell out of'um and go on about your business. Maybe they won't treat the next guy the same way! Shocked

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Subject: Re: pipe elitism Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:23 pm

It always takes two for elitism to take place...one to act in a manner and one to perceive the actions as elitism. There are various ways to counteract elitism (including physical retaliation). My personal favorite way is to dwell on some insignificant fact or feature of the pipe/shop/tobacco/owner/salesman that would provide a demeaning notation of inferiority or lesser quality. Cleanliness and purity are usually two of the elitist pet peeves, so any comment about the lack of orderliness/cleanliness of any of the above are useful.

Jim..my ha'pence worth if that.
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Pipe Nebula

Joined : 11 Dec 2007 Posts : 49

It just goes to show, there's nothing one can do that will be met with universal approval. In every standing ovation there's at least one person sitting with his arms folded. Are Neill and Greg influential? Yes, because they write publicly about things that interest them. Anyone who reads what they write will be influenced, if only by the thought it takes to read. The more acute their observations, the more independent their views, the more solidly their assessments are backed up by readily observable criteria, the more positive their influence. This is, I believe, a service, and not to be confused with pop dol-imitation (for instance, Britney Aguilera wears jeans cut so low that they require additional personal grooming and appear to defy gravity, so all pubescent girls do the same).

Jack

Joined : 14 May 2008 Posts : 15 Location : Canada

Neill, everything Yak said in this thread is just the same thing and sentiment we hear everywhere else, only in more refined words, with some historic parallels and a splash of philosophical reasoning... Laughing

Seriously, how different was it from: "I smoke many expensive artisan pipes and all my ... (pick a brand) smoke just as good or better"? or this one: "As far as I'm concerned, anyone spending more than $... (pick an amount) is a snobby moron (or a moronic snob)"? or my favourite: "All these overpriced Danes (pick one - Germans, Japanese, Young Americans etc.) are just a hype created by promoters?" ... It isn't that much different I submit. Just elaborated upon a bit more.

And while trying to prove that one also does smoke corncobs, contrary to his efforts, he is being labelled a "populist-snob" - a snob that pretends to be "like the rest of us"... Why trying? Why care? Question

See, I really respect and value opinions of the people that DO share my pipe affections, shape preferences, buying habits etc. I will endlessly argue my point with them, explaining why and what... But I will not waste my time, energy and effort explaining all that to a fellow (or a crowd of fellows) that think nothing of MY hobby and that consider me a snob (elitist, idiot etc.). Screw them, Neill! Life's too short to attempt convincing the unconvinceable. Each one of us comes to picking our collecting interests in a different fashion. We all have our own logic, justification and means. I respect every person's right to enjoy the hobby in whichever way that means to them. I even respect their right to tell me (and everyone else) that their way is the only right way. It's part of the hobby. I do, however, refuse and reject their right to tell me (and everyone else) that my way is stupid. Because, IMHO, they usually have no f$%^ng clue about what they're talking about.

Enjoy the beautiful pipes you have and share your passion where it's appreciated.