pipe elitism

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I love steakhouses, and I love Burger King. I also hate McDonalds.

P.S. I think I'm channeling Scott Curtis from ASP.

Subject: Re: pipe elitism Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:11 pm

I hope post doesn't sound preachy. It is not my intention.

I have been reading this post with some interest and have decided that I am a pipe elitist. I started smoking about 5 years ago and had pipes that gurgled, got too hot, and the drugstore tobacco wasn't enjoyable. As I learned more about pipes and tobacco, I have found blends that I liked. I happened to buy a Ser Jacopo and really enjoyed it. The pipe looked beautiful, smoked well and didn't gurgle.

Now I will purchase a Ser Jacopo and other pipes that I see as beautiful. Do I consider these pipes better than other pipes? Yes, for me, knowing that my knowledge and experience is limited. I have a modest amount of money and I buy what pleases me. My perception of beauty and pleasure in smoking a pipe is highly subjective. Since this is the case, I don't judge another person because of their sense of what is beautiful or how they spend their money.

When another member purchases a Peterson, Corncob or a high end pipe, I am happy for them. It gives them pleasure. If I spent my time envying other people's possessions, I would derive less pleasure from this hobby and my life in general. I can own what some other people have if I acquired the skills in an area that would bring me a higher income. Is this worth it? Not at this point of my life. I am happy doing what I do.

There are people who set high standards for themselves in different areas of their lives. When people acquire skills in art, beauty, form, function and history in an area, eg. pipes, I tend to listen to them. They have invested their time, talent and money to pursue this knowledge. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to learn from these people and admire their acquisitions. From this experience, my appreciation and knowledge for this hobby increases.
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Carle in Omaha
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Subject: Re: pipe elitism Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:36 pm

Joined : 14 May 2008 Posts : 15 Location : Canada

Wow, my first clash here. That didn’t take long. Cool

Yak:
No, I don’t believe I imagined what you’ve sad (and I am going to spell your forum name correctly, although you didn’t afford me the same courtesy). Your posts, while written and reasoned seemingly well, have offended at least one person, whom I know personally and hold in high regards; thus, you have achieved the exact opposite of what you declare your intentions were (how’s that for a complex sentence? Smile

).

People admiring Rembrandt paintings that are worth many millions of dollars don’t usually scoff at them saying: “I don’t have THAT kind of money for a painting. My nephew’s work looks just like it.” However; substitute painting for “Pipe” and nephew for “Dr. Grabow” and here we have a phrase the gist of which I have read and heard many times in many variations and at various forums. No doubt, you have too. But I took an issue with your approach to explain this phenomenon on a natural historical-philosophical basis; hence, somehow justifying this as right. Yes, you didn’t say that a Dr. Grabow pipe is same or better than a pipe made by Lars Ivarsson, but it FELT that you approve of other people saying that. At least to me it did. It did to Neill as well.

I’ve participated in a number of fairly serious and fairly funny pipe-related discussions between “technical perfectionists”, “artistry lovers” and “price-value seekers” that ended both peacefully and vice versa. When such discussions cross the line of accepting one’s attitude to a hobby and move to judging such attitude beyond a friendly poke, it stops being civilized and tolerant for me. Mad

I don’t judge guys smoking corn cobs. It’s their business, their money and their enjoyment. I used to live and support my family on five bucks an hour working 12 hours a day, seven days a week. I understand the issue of affordability. But I cannot stand a guy smoking corn cobs and pompously preaching that everything else is just overpriced crap for the snobs and showoffs. This might be natural for some, but that doesn't make it right.

Subject: Re: pipe elitism Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:00 am

When you get down to it the cob statement has merit. Very Happy

(Even though I refuse to smoke them, stereotypes and what not).

What it really boils down to is certain folks (none here, well except Ian, ha ha) thinking that because they smoke extremely high dollar pipes they are somehow better than those that don't, I actually read a book by a feller that thinks he is an industry giant because he smokes Blowsnails! WTF?

Neil, DPG, and a few others are pipesmokers I hold in high regard, I don't care if they smoke Grabows or Cholaritukis, that doesn't matter to me, and I don't think my pipe of choice matters to them.
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For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

crede ut intelligas

Subject: Re: pipe elitism Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:29 am

Well, as you've noticed, Captain Yoohman, my memory isn't what it used to be Very Happy

I intended no slight on you by it.

That said, I still protest that what you're doing is eisogesis : reading something into what I wrote. Not exegesis (pulling the gist of it out). Go into it assuming that envy and jealousy necessarily motivate people discussing elitism (because they often do), and that's what you'll "find" in it. Assume that the very concept of an"elite" must be a personal put-down rather than an objective appraisal, and it will be one -- to you.

But there's noting about it that makes this have to be the case, and a lot about it that undoes this assumption.

Try it from this angle : The intersection of form and function is the soil in which craft art grows. Golden Age American longrifles, for an example. People aren't satisfied with just a bare minimum tool that will get the job done. They want their furniture, clothes and accoutrements to be nice. To be things of beauty in their own right. Most of the old rifles made were "bare bones," lock-stock-&-barrel-with-a-trigger examples, because that's what people could afford. But even here, as with Shaker furniture, elite (there's that word again) makers like John Philip Beck were notable for the simple, pure, functional elegance they acheived. (Which is about where we're at with contemporary "high end" pipes. Hold the shank extentions and jewelry, please).

There is a heirarchy of acheivement in longrifle history. An elite group at the top of that field of design and craftsmanship. Their finest works survive today because people with a lot of money then were elitists. And because the people who passed them down through the generations were elitists. And because the people who have collected, published on and displayed them are elitists, whether they will or no.

The money issue isn't the big one. It's being fixated on quality. Recognizing it, evaluating it and enjoying it. Elitism. Joe Sixpack wants something cold to wash his barbeque down with ; the elitist wants the microbrew that compliments it. Bach could have slid by, scribbling junk that no one would remember or celebrate today. But he didn't. Because he was an elitist. Ben Wade (back when it was still Ben Wade), Charatan and Dunhill are what they were because they catered to elitists. Same deal today. Elitism is an historical constant, and living in denial of it is just (IMHO) flat-out nuts.

We has met the enemy, and he is us. He's been us from time out of mind.

What I'm trying to accomplish with this is to work through the knee-jerk jumpiness that you had the stones to articulate when a lot of other people were probably seething over it without speaking up. Because they assumed I must be putting people down rather than appraising the situation and their role in it.

So can we just cut the crap and stop wincing when somebody calls a spade a spade ? Quality exists because of elitism. Ditto appreciation of it.

What a Face

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Subject: Re: pipe elitism Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:57 am

Subject: Re: pipe elitism Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:02 am

Subject: Re: pipe elitism Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:13 am

Subject: Re: pipe elitism Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:51 am

Yak, I believe your point (on quality) is essentially the same as that made in Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Was that your intention?

Subject: Re: pipe elitism Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:18 am

Sad to say, Muddler, I've never read it. You could tell me better than I could tell you Very Happy

JP :

Joined : 14 May 2008 Posts : 15 Location : Canada

It never stops amusing me when someone says: “I’m not a racist, but those Japs (Jews, Arabs, Yellows etc.) are just getting on my nerves sometimes…” Doesn’t apply, you’d say? How’s this: “I really think all Vauens are useless laquered pieces of dung. But I don’t mind people smoking them, as long as they enjoy it.” “I just laugh at all those blowsnails, but if those guys want to pay big bucks for them, that’s their business, as long as they don’t think too much of themselves” See anything wrong in these statements?.. Question

The way this thread started was about salesman’s perception of a potential client’s ability to buy expensive pipes sold at that store. As a homebuilder, we have to deal with such salespeople often. They try to “qualify” someone walking in the door and decide if those people are “worthy” of their precious time. There are times when I really wanna kick them in their shins for doing that. My motto is to treat everyone walking in the sales centre as a potential buyer. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow… But one day this approach should pay off, I believe.

You may recall a famous story-legend about Sixten Ivarsson telling some fellow walking in his shop that he didn’t have any pipes for him and explaining later that the guy wasn’t worthy of an Ivarsson’s Product with his dirty drug-store pipe and a pack of drug-store tobacco sticking out of his pocket... Well, maybe he did, maybe he didn’t. What if old Sixten did take a little bit of time and try educating the guy about why Ivarsson’s pipes are good (better, best)? What if that explanation would have changed the guy’s take on pipes forever? Just kidding, it probably wouldn’t have… Very Happy

Anyway, the above was not an example of Elitism. It was either business stupidity or business reality depending on who you ask. And that’s not the direction this discussion evolved either, isn’t it? Cool

The way I’d define Elitism in Pipe Smoking and Collecting is public, open and derogatory expression of one's disrespect of smoking preferences and collecting interests of others. I find that Elitism wrong and unacceptable in a decent community.

“You may say I am dreamer
But I’m not the only one”
J. Lennon

Subject: Re: pipe elitism Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:43 pm

Roughians,uncouth roughians I say, the lot of you, be gone from here.. I'm trying to smoke my bearded Octipi!

So... Let's see... After seven pages we have decided what?

Sixten was an elitist,
The guys that smoke his pipes may or may not be,
A peterson champion definatly is,
Don't smoke drug store tobacco, you won't have friends.......
_________________
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

crede ut intelligas

Joined : 04 Jun 2008 Posts : 1

I am glad someone finally wrote about that famous Boston pipe shop. I always have had subpar experiences when I have visited that place; thus, despite working in the Boston financial district near that famous shop for 8+years, I rarely step foot inside the store. They just aren't friendly nor engaging with customers, at least not me. I do like one of their tobaccos (Omega), but frankly, there are plenty of fantastic English blends on the market and I can always buy via mail order. I contrast my experiences at that store with the outstanding mail order service of Jon's Pipe Shop in Champaign, IL. Patrick, the proprietor of Jon's, is one of the friendliest guys in the business, and has the more customer friendly terms for pipe purchases.

Subject: Re: pipe elitism Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:25 pm