I recently purchased some Canadian Virginia tobacco in leaf form. When I smoked some of it (in my pipe of course), it had some of the characteristics of a golden Virginia (sweet and fragrant). However it was a little harsh. I was wondering if by putting the leaves in a kiln (120 degrees Fahrenheit for a month or so) it would get rid of some of the harshness and accelerate the aging process?
accelerating the aging process
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puros_bran
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Zanaspus
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Agreed. You can't really re-cure a cured tobacco. Hide it away for a few years. Remember, the tobacco companies are using aged Va in their blends and even some of those seem young.puros_bran":e4lh7d4d said:
Assuming the Mayans were wrong, it should be much better in five years.
You might try blending it with some other tobaccos, which might bring down the harshness a bit.
Maybe some Tambolaka...KIDDING! :roll:
I think there are some types that would work though...like Black Cavendish? There are some decent websites that talk about the varying properties that other types might bring which you could find via a quick search. One might be 'pipedia' and there are a few dedicated to the blending process.
You might also try stoving some - if you have a crockpot. That might be interesting.
If you do decide to do that, let us know how things turn out.
Re: the aging process...if you happen to have a time machine around somewhere...
Maybe some Tambolaka...KIDDING! :roll:
I think there are some types that would work though...like Black Cavendish? There are some decent websites that talk about the varying properties that other types might bring which you could find via a quick search. One might be 'pipedia' and there are a few dedicated to the blending process.
You might also try stoving some - if you have a crockpot. That might be interesting.
If you do decide to do that, let us know how things turn out.
Re: the aging process...if you happen to have a time machine around somewhere...
alfredo_buscatti
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Guys have posted about leaving a closed tin on the dash in sunny weather and swear that this improved it; like getting two years of age in 24 hours. I believe them. But that is too radical for me. Tobacco ages best in a closed container kept between 50 and 70 degrees, if I have those temperatures right; but you get the idea, temperate temperatures. I have much more confidence in the blessings of time, wherein the tobacco is neither cold nor hot, than I do in heat. Time will achieve everything you want from aging, and it's guaranteed not to trash your tobacco in the meantime.
Thanks all of you for your input. I guess I will have to stash away this Virginia for a few years - it's a long time to wait! From what I understand, curing and fermenting are two separate and distinct processes. From what I have read, tobaccos are first cured (via air, sun, flue, etc.) and then fermented by placing the tobacco in large piles where heat is evolved to sustain the fermentation. On a small scale, fermentation is procured using a kiln (at 70-75% humidity and circa 115-120 degrees Fahrenheit for 4 to 6 weeks). The fermentation process helps to get rid of ammonia and other chemicals that give an unpleasant smell; otherwise, the tobacco will smell like burning leaves (such as in autumn when leaves are raked from lawns and put into piles to burn).
In addition to purchasing this Canadian Virginia I also purchased some sun-cured Yenidje in leaf form (leaves were much smaller in size compared to the Virginia). I smoked some of the Yenidje and it definitely had that characteristic aroma of Yenidje; however, it too was a bit harsh and also had the smell of burning leaves. I assumed that the tobacco was cured, but it did not undergo the fermentation process. Please correct me if I assumed wrong.
This is why I thought that the Canadian Virginia may benefit from putting it in a kiln for a while - to finish off the fermentation process (that is, assuming that the fermentation did not go to completion). I guess the only way to really know would be to put some in a kiln and observe any changes.
One more question, I know that Virginias age well whereas Burleys do not (at least not to the same extent). I imagine this has to do with the sugar content in these tobaccos. What about orientals such as Yenidje? Do they benefit much from aging?
In addition to purchasing this Canadian Virginia I also purchased some sun-cured Yenidje in leaf form (leaves were much smaller in size compared to the Virginia). I smoked some of the Yenidje and it definitely had that characteristic aroma of Yenidje; however, it too was a bit harsh and also had the smell of burning leaves. I assumed that the tobacco was cured, but it did not undergo the fermentation process. Please correct me if I assumed wrong.
This is why I thought that the Canadian Virginia may benefit from putting it in a kiln for a while - to finish off the fermentation process (that is, assuming that the fermentation did not go to completion). I guess the only way to really know would be to put some in a kiln and observe any changes.
One more question, I know that Virginias age well whereas Burleys do not (at least not to the same extent). I imagine this has to do with the sugar content in these tobaccos. What about orientals such as Yenidje? Do they benefit much from aging?
alfredo_buscatti
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Cigar tobacco left in a pilon (big heap) will ferment through the heat generated by the decay of the leaves in its center; an attendant who knows when to turn them does so at the optimum time; if not, they would turn to mush. This process seems more to me like fermentation, rather than curing, as in fermentation new compounds are transformed from the prior compounds, emitting heat, though fermentation can also be driven by bacteria. Fermentation is decomposition. The decomposition of tobacco leaves in the pilon is different from what I would call curing, when cigar tobacco is hung in the curing barn, although at some point it may well be stacked or bundled. Curing has more to do with stabilization. But I would suspect that someone who actually knows about these processes might have a much better answer than I, be able to differentiate between fermentation and curing as well as when to use them interchangeably when appropriate.
The last time this product was discussed, we ran out of gas when we tried to differentiate between what happens in the tin to pipe tobacco as it undergoes aerobic and anaerobic fermentation/aging and what happens to cigars in the humidor, where they certainly age, but through some other process, as theoretically, they could never get to anaerobic aging as they are always exposed to air, and it is anaerobic aging that provides most of the aged qualities that we enjoy.
I think that Vito could help us here: call for Veeeeee-toe´!
The last time this product was discussed, we ran out of gas when we tried to differentiate between what happens in the tin to pipe tobacco as it undergoes aerobic and anaerobic fermentation/aging and what happens to cigars in the humidor, where they certainly age, but through some other process, as theoretically, they could never get to anaerobic aging as they are always exposed to air, and it is anaerobic aging that provides most of the aged qualities that we enjoy.
I think that Vito could help us here: call for Veeeeee-toe´!
Kyle Weiss
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Better than aging the accelerating process...in some instances, anyway... :lol:
8)
8)
I guess you could always try a bowl or 2's worth of tobacco with the heat (dash board) method. This way if you didn't like the results, you're not out much.
I have to agree on time being the best method here. If this means purchasing a different blend to smoke while this stuff ages, then so be it. The good stuff will only get better with aging (to a certain extent).
Ironically, with my other hobby - time is not the determining factor for perfection. When I throw a Beef Brisket on the smoker (Weber Smokey Mountain), it's done when it's tender. With a Brisket, you can't go by time or by the meat's internal temperature. It's done when it's done.
Give this stuff 6-months and try a small sample. If you feel it needs more time, give it another 6-months - or even a year IMHO.
I have to agree on time being the best method here. If this means purchasing a different blend to smoke while this stuff ages, then so be it. The good stuff will only get better with aging (to a certain extent).
Ironically, with my other hobby - time is not the determining factor for perfection. When I throw a Beef Brisket on the smoker (Weber Smokey Mountain), it's done when it's tender. With a Brisket, you can't go by time or by the meat's internal temperature. It's done when it's done.
Give this stuff 6-months and try a small sample. If you feel it needs more time, give it another 6-months - or even a year IMHO.
Rusty
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I remember a time when stoving everything in sight was all the rage on SF. One of them showed up with a new member that he had cooked for a while before introducing him. The new member had a sweet personality and was respectful but had no taste at all. The mad stover had lobotomized him - caramelized his brain. It seems to me that you might end up with the same result. You can certainly experiment with small samples and it should drive off some of the high end tang and maybe caramelize some of the sugars. That should calm it a bit. Sounds like an experiment. Maybe there are some other questions to answer first.fumo bro":719skdzk said:
Is the leaf young? McClelland describes the sacrifice of tongue as smoking samples of flu cured but not matured Virginia leaf. The ones they select for purchase go into their leaf warehouse for at least a couple of summers (that's longer than a month) to mature by sweating (and fermenting) in stacks to eliminate some of the harsher elements. Some of them have something in common with things like ammonia so they have to sweat it out. So how old is yours and what is its condition? If it's not matured Virginia then it really is missing a step. The reason I ask is that some of the harvest in Ontario up and vanishes without taxes being paid.
If it is matured Virginia then maybe it is bright yellow or gold and simply loaded with sugar and tangy like that from one of the American belts. Did any of you notice that there is a Belt from which McClelland has never released a Christmas Cheer? There might even be two Virginia belts that have never appeared, come to think of it. But the one that is responsible for rather bright sugary lemon leaf is Eastern Belt. Smokers would write hate mail to them if they did inflict straight tangy Eastern Belt on us. People would call it Christmas Grinch. It can be a bit like a rabid weasel but exciting! Cigarette makers love it. But of course they use it in a blend.
Applying heat to tobacco is a very effective way of murdering it. It transforms it into something else—a horrifying alien mutant abomination from hell. :x
OK...now that I've got your attention, I'll drop into reasoned discourse mode. Seriously, you can't accelerate aging by using heat. The suggestion itself presumes that aging has anything to do with heat in the first place. It doesn't. Heat is one of the methods used to cure tobacco, but curing and aging aren't the same thing. (I won't discuss curing here.)
True aging requires anaerobic action—a kind of fermentation that produces "VOAs" (volatile organic aromatics). Many similar compounds are found in the fermentation of wine, especially white wine. Heat has nothing to do with that. In fact, it interferes with it.
Heating ("stoving") is a way of artificially accelerating the maturation of tobacco. Typically, heat darkens and sweetens the tobacco, but it doesn't age it. Only time and the right conditions can do that. If there's a way to significantly short-cut the aging process, I don't know what it is. There are some things you just can't hurry.
If you want to age your tobacco properly, my best advice is to pack it into a jar with an airtight seal and store it as close to a constant 68°F as you can. Fill the jar as much as possible to leave as little air as possible. The tobacco won't start to age until aerobic bacteria have exhausted all the oxygen in the jar, at which point the anaerobic bacteria will take over and begin to transform the leaf.
There's some speculation that evacuation (sucking all the air out of the jar) might accelerate the onset of anaerobic action. I'm skeptical about that claim. In my experience, the tobacco needs to have some air in it to start with in order to age properly. The few experiments I've done with vacuum packing (I mean serious vacuum, not the partial vacuum they use to seal some tobacco tins) seem to indicate that it retards the onset of aging rather than accelerating it.
Anyhow, once you get your tobacco packed, sealed, and stored properly, the rest is up to time. A good sugary Virginia leaf should begin to show signs of aging within two to three years under the right conditions. Within 3 to 5 years you'll have some serious "fruitiness". Within 6 to 8 years it should knock your socks off.
:joker:
OK...now that I've got your attention, I'll drop into reasoned discourse mode. Seriously, you can't accelerate aging by using heat. The suggestion itself presumes that aging has anything to do with heat in the first place. It doesn't. Heat is one of the methods used to cure tobacco, but curing and aging aren't the same thing. (I won't discuss curing here.)
True aging requires anaerobic action—a kind of fermentation that produces "VOAs" (volatile organic aromatics). Many similar compounds are found in the fermentation of wine, especially white wine. Heat has nothing to do with that. In fact, it interferes with it.
Heating ("stoving") is a way of artificially accelerating the maturation of tobacco. Typically, heat darkens and sweetens the tobacco, but it doesn't age it. Only time and the right conditions can do that. If there's a way to significantly short-cut the aging process, I don't know what it is. There are some things you just can't hurry.
If you want to age your tobacco properly, my best advice is to pack it into a jar with an airtight seal and store it as close to a constant 68°F as you can. Fill the jar as much as possible to leave as little air as possible. The tobacco won't start to age until aerobic bacteria have exhausted all the oxygen in the jar, at which point the anaerobic bacteria will take over and begin to transform the leaf.
There's some speculation that evacuation (sucking all the air out of the jar) might accelerate the onset of anaerobic action. I'm skeptical about that claim. In my experience, the tobacco needs to have some air in it to start with in order to age properly. The few experiments I've done with vacuum packing (I mean serious vacuum, not the partial vacuum they use to seal some tobacco tins) seem to indicate that it retards the onset of aging rather than accelerating it.
Anyhow, once you get your tobacco packed, sealed, and stored properly, the rest is up to time. A good sugary Virginia leaf should begin to show signs of aging within two to three years under the right conditions. Within 3 to 5 years you'll have some serious "fruitiness". Within 6 to 8 years it should knock your socks off.
:joker:
alfredo_buscatti
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Hey Vito,
Always good to see you around these parts!
From my post above:
"I would like to differentiate between what happens in the tin to pipe tobacco as it undergoes aerobic and anaerobic fermentation/aging and what happens to cigars in the humidor, where they certainly age, but through some other process, as theoretically, they could never get to anaerobic aging as they are always exposed to air, and it is anaerobic aging that provides most of the aged qualities that we enjoy."
Do you have any insight here?
Mike
Always good to see you around these parts!
From my post above:
"I would like to differentiate between what happens in the tin to pipe tobacco as it undergoes aerobic and anaerobic fermentation/aging and what happens to cigars in the humidor, where they certainly age, but through some other process, as theoretically, they could never get to anaerobic aging as they are always exposed to air, and it is anaerobic aging that provides most of the aged qualities that we enjoy."
Do you have any insight here?
Mike
Hi Mike:
To answer your question as directly and concisely as possible, the only immediate insight I have on the subject of cigar "aging" is that it's subject to the same kind of non-specificity in terminology that afflicts most of pipedom...only worse.
You're right of course; whatever the term "aging" means in the world of 'garage, it evidently can't refer to an anaerobic process. The only possible exception might be any of the 'gars that are sold in glass tubes and stored in their original store-bought condition, and only then to the extent that any of them are hermetically sealed. Those with plastic stoppers, maybe; the ones with cork stoppers, definitely not. The ones I've seen that are stored in metal tubes, probably not...unless the cap has a plastisol seal and it's secured with tape.
Actually, I don't think that the kind of anaerobic fermentation whose results we value so highly in pipeweed is necessarily desirable in 'garweed. In fact, I'm not even sure that kind of aging is possible in cigars, onna counta I don't think most 'garweed has enough sugar to support it.
Whatever the process of "aging" involves in the cigar universe, it does appear to result in a mellowing of the tobacco, but in at least one kind of cigar aging, I can point to one very specific factor that contributes to the outcome—namely, cedar.
One of the best "aged" cigars I've ever smoked was one of two very old Jamaican-made Macanudos that had been stored in a solid cedar block specially shaped and bored to accommodate them. I don't know how long the 'gars had "aged" in that cedar womb, but when it birthed them into the celebratory smoke I shared with the brothah who whupped 'em out...well, it's no exaggeration to say that it was a transcendent burnage event. I've had similarly nirvanic smokes from other 'gars that have been stored in cedar.
So, to the extent that there is some melding of the cedar's aromatic qualities with those of the 'garweed, that must surely be a part of that particular kind of "aging". Cedar contains volatile aromatic oils whose vapors must penetrate the leaf and ultimately be absorbed by it. I know nothing about the extent to which they might chemically transform the tobacco, or what other effects of time, temperature, and humidity might be involved, but when they're done properly, it results in superb smokage.
Whatever the cigar aging process is, it's similar to pipeweed aging in at least one respect—it takes time. And it has one other similarity, too; it's well worth the wait. :mrgreen:
As always, it's a pleasure to converse with you on weedic subjects, amigo!
To answer your question as directly and concisely as possible, the only immediate insight I have on the subject of cigar "aging" is that it's subject to the same kind of non-specificity in terminology that afflicts most of pipedom...only worse.
You're right of course; whatever the term "aging" means in the world of 'garage, it evidently can't refer to an anaerobic process. The only possible exception might be any of the 'gars that are sold in glass tubes and stored in their original store-bought condition, and only then to the extent that any of them are hermetically sealed. Those with plastic stoppers, maybe; the ones with cork stoppers, definitely not. The ones I've seen that are stored in metal tubes, probably not...unless the cap has a plastisol seal and it's secured with tape.
Actually, I don't think that the kind of anaerobic fermentation whose results we value so highly in pipeweed is necessarily desirable in 'garweed. In fact, I'm not even sure that kind of aging is possible in cigars, onna counta I don't think most 'garweed has enough sugar to support it.
Whatever the process of "aging" involves in the cigar universe, it does appear to result in a mellowing of the tobacco, but in at least one kind of cigar aging, I can point to one very specific factor that contributes to the outcome—namely, cedar.
One of the best "aged" cigars I've ever smoked was one of two very old Jamaican-made Macanudos that had been stored in a solid cedar block specially shaped and bored to accommodate them. I don't know how long the 'gars had "aged" in that cedar womb, but when it birthed them into the celebratory smoke I shared with the brothah who whupped 'em out...well, it's no exaggeration to say that it was a transcendent burnage event. I've had similarly nirvanic smokes from other 'gars that have been stored in cedar.
So, to the extent that there is some melding of the cedar's aromatic qualities with those of the 'garweed, that must surely be a part of that particular kind of "aging". Cedar contains volatile aromatic oils whose vapors must penetrate the leaf and ultimately be absorbed by it. I know nothing about the extent to which they might chemically transform the tobacco, or what other effects of time, temperature, and humidity might be involved, but when they're done properly, it results in superb smokage.
Whatever the cigar aging process is, it's similar to pipeweed aging in at least one respect—it takes time. And it has one other similarity, too; it's well worth the wait. :mrgreen:
As always, it's a pleasure to converse with you on weedic subjects, amigo!
sam a
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i am no biochemist, but i believe anaerobic organisms do not necessarily perish in the presence of oxygen. some do (obligate anaerobes)... and perhaps those are indeed the little guys that we are looking for. but my understanding is that there does not have to be a total lack of oxygen for most anaerobes to do their thing. to much airflow however can result in a loss of flavor (through loss of molecules, to much oxidation, etc.) and that is likely the culprit for poor aging. but the presence of oxygen itself is not the enemy to tasty baccy or gars, and i would assume it exists in all well sealed tins and jars of tobacco in some amount. like i said i'm no biochemist or aging expert but this is my understanding of it.
Kyle Weiss
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Vito is one of the few that can take this three-ring circus and reassert it into an informational resource. :lol:
I, too, have heard anaerobic bacteria aren't suddenly killed like a wet witch when exposed to oxygen--rather, they lay dormant until the conditions they prefer improve. In a sealed container, say, a tobacco jar, the aerobic dudes do their thing eating bits of organic this and that, taking up oxygen (and contributing few compounds of any note to improve tobacco) and at some point, there tips a balance where the oxygen is depleted, and the anaerobic dudes get to work, eating little bits of sugars and nutrients, and spitting out these VOA's over time Vito mentioned...
...with that in mind, "VOAs" (volatile organic aromatics)-- Vito, do you have a good source of info so those of us interested in reading more could do so? To my knowledge (and searches confirming) there are VOCs, "Volatile Organic Compounds," some are tied to "aromatics" (certain chemicals to which I see no need to list). Please, link me, and nerd me out to some sources. :cheers:
I, too, have heard anaerobic bacteria aren't suddenly killed like a wet witch when exposed to oxygen--rather, they lay dormant until the conditions they prefer improve. In a sealed container, say, a tobacco jar, the aerobic dudes do their thing eating bits of organic this and that, taking up oxygen (and contributing few compounds of any note to improve tobacco) and at some point, there tips a balance where the oxygen is depleted, and the anaerobic dudes get to work, eating little bits of sugars and nutrients, and spitting out these VOA's over time Vito mentioned...
...with that in mind, "VOAs" (volatile organic aromatics)-- Vito, do you have a good source of info so those of us interested in reading more could do so? To my knowledge (and searches confirming) there are VOCs, "Volatile Organic Compounds," some are tied to "aromatics" (certain chemicals to which I see no need to list). Please, link me, and nerd me out to some sources. :cheers:
I'm puzzled. Nowhere in either of my posts in this thread does it say that oxygen kills anaerobic bacteria. I don't know where youse guys got that notion from, but it didn't come from me.
It doesn't even make sense to suggest such a thing. If it were true, how could a hermetically sealed jar whose contents initially contain oxygen ever develop anaerobic activity? The anaerobic bacteria would have already bought the farm. Surely you're not suggesting that they spontaneously generate.
I'm not a biochemist, but I've had plenty of experience with biochemical processes. I worked in environmental science for 16 years—principally in industrial wastewater pollution control. Many of my clients were food products manufacturers. I spent a lot of time working with stuff most folks wouldn't even want to look at, much less smell. I'm no stranger to anaerobic processes.
Anaerobic action is like many other processes; it has its own optimum conditions. It's not all or nothing, but the less oxygen, the better. I was trying to avoid being too technical; evidently I succeeded. Despite their length, my posts in this thread are superficial; they aren't intended to be detailed expositions. It's never clear how much detail is appropriate, especially on this board, whose focus has...er, well...shifted somewhat over the years.
Kyle: I haven't done any quantitative analysis of aged pipe tobacco samples (e.g., gas chromatograpy-mass spectrometer analysis), which is what it would take to identify with certainty the kinds of aromatic compounds therein. However, I suspect that they include various esters, and probably some phenols.
But it depends on the tobaccos. For example, I wouldn't be surprised to find that some aged 'garweed blends (Balkan Sobrainie Virginian No. 10 comes to mind) contain butyric acid. Someone who knows a lot more about tobacco than I do has suggested that ammonia (definitely volatile, but not an organic compound) is also a possible candidate in aged cigar leaf blends. My own observations jive with that assertion.
In answer to your question: Alas, I don't know of any sources that reliably identify or quantify the organics in aged pipeweed. I can refer you to many sources that list the regulated (and mostly hazardous) volatile organic compounds in industrial wastewater, but I'm guessing that you're not interested in those. :mrgreen:
It doesn't even make sense to suggest such a thing. If it were true, how could a hermetically sealed jar whose contents initially contain oxygen ever develop anaerobic activity? The anaerobic bacteria would have already bought the farm. Surely you're not suggesting that they spontaneously generate.
I'm not a biochemist, but I've had plenty of experience with biochemical processes. I worked in environmental science for 16 years—principally in industrial wastewater pollution control. Many of my clients were food products manufacturers. I spent a lot of time working with stuff most folks wouldn't even want to look at, much less smell. I'm no stranger to anaerobic processes.
Anaerobic action is like many other processes; it has its own optimum conditions. It's not all or nothing, but the less oxygen, the better. I was trying to avoid being too technical; evidently I succeeded. Despite their length, my posts in this thread are superficial; they aren't intended to be detailed expositions. It's never clear how much detail is appropriate, especially on this board, whose focus has...er, well...shifted somewhat over the years.
Kyle: I haven't done any quantitative analysis of aged pipe tobacco samples (e.g., gas chromatograpy-mass spectrometer analysis), which is what it would take to identify with certainty the kinds of aromatic compounds therein. However, I suspect that they include various esters, and probably some phenols.
But it depends on the tobaccos. For example, I wouldn't be surprised to find that some aged 'garweed blends (Balkan Sobrainie Virginian No. 10 comes to mind) contain butyric acid. Someone who knows a lot more about tobacco than I do has suggested that ammonia (definitely volatile, but not an organic compound) is also a possible candidate in aged cigar leaf blends. My own observations jive with that assertion.
In answer to your question: Alas, I don't know of any sources that reliably identify or quantify the organics in aged pipeweed. I can refer you to many sources that list the regulated (and mostly hazardous) volatile organic compounds in industrial wastewater, but I'm guessing that you're not interested in those. :mrgreen: