Finnish education

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beetlejazz":g81kbyta said:
I don't think that learning from life experience and studying for a degree in an university/college/whatever are mutually exclusive. But I've gotten a lot of the "Oh you haven't learned about LIFE as you're in your academic cocoon" or, say, when I was regularly working on the cemetary: "You academic types just don't know how to do the practical/hands on stuff" -shit. It's just as a unfounded stereotype as anything else.

I think studying in Finland and the degrees themselves are pretty different from what happens in US colleges. The big competition is at the entrance exams (I wasn't very good at school either and my marticulation exam results were pretty much as good as toilet paper for me) as there's no significant financial risk or restraints for studying so getting in is the big divider. The degrees are way less "colorful" than what I've heard people can do in US - you have to know your major clearly when you apply and there's limits to how far from it you venture. There's no art lessons in the university, you need to get into an art or design school for that (I think it's about 2% who get in). It's slow, people don't live in campuses, it takes easily 7-8 years to get your masters (bachelors is worth nothing here, once you're in you go for masters). Me? I had my personal breakdown around the time I should have been finishing my thesis, and it's taken me a few years to get back on track. Luckily the system is pretty forgiving. And I find it actually rather fair - I cost next to nothing to the university, I'm working on my thesis independently and will need very little help to finish this thing when the time is right. I'm just a name in their list of students for them.

The real shitty stuff starts after graduation. I find it ridiculous that the Finnish leaders love to toot the "education" and "research" horns while money is stripped constantly from all academic activity that doesn't sound like it's going to lead to the next big e-gadget.

I've said it before but personally I find it very important that there are institutions of learning and research. It's not only for producing information, but for maintaining information. Knowledge that's in books no-one is reading is just as disconnected from the society than a memory stick is disconnected from a computer when it's been pulled out.
Well put Beetle, well put :cheers:
 
Beetle, as you well know, I have only the US educational experience to pull from with what I witness.

College isn't bad, it just isn't automatically good, and certainly isn't worth it from the many of the masses who've gone through the gauntlet. Universities weren't always run this way. Working with many graduates and post-graduates who are 65+ years old in my field of work have opened my eyes to this--add to that the shocking observation I'm often one of the youngest people in the very necessary work I do made me realize something is wrong...I should have 22 year-olds running circles around li'l uneducated me and making it hard to get work. On the contrary, I'm a spectacle at meetings and conventions... "...it's so great to see a young face in our field!" Add to that the handful of college-age kids (and I mean, handful: five) that already have internships in similar areas like mine leading to six-figure careers because there's no competition, it makes me wonder.

College, around here, seems to be about the "experience" with a piece of paper you get at the end. It hasn't prepped many kids for jobs, work, or internships. Part of that is any of the industries that could be involved with the colleges/universities laying down and merely accepting the fact they aren't politically-correct enough to have a presence on a campus (pick any industrial application, the dirty stuff people are trying to ignore are a vital part of modern civilization), so the blame is two-fold, at least.

The University of Nevada Reno used to have one of the most comprehensive and respected mining engineering programs around. The mining companies used to have a huge part in helping to subsidize education, prepare students for careers, and establish fast-track internships for students. That meant people earning degrees and paying for tuition kept their money in the state's economy, and found jobs close to home. Besides the new administrations that have been shoring up their ranks in politics, the proper donors and good-buddy tenure teaching positions systematically dismantling all but the most basic of geology and mining programs/courses, UNR now gives out a majority of degrees in things like political science, environmental biology and generic engineering--which not only make it impossible for students to get jobs, they take them outside the state, leaving us with a vacuum of general labor (casino-related, mostly), which perpetuates the idea Reno isn't a town other businesses want to set up shop. Why? Because people with money, spend money, improve towns, pay taxes for other things, and the like. If they take their degrees, provided they're useful, elsewhere, poof, a so-called crappy town.

Regarding mining, which is Nevada's real strength, the fact maybe a half dozen students graduate with degrees even half-way useful to the industry, an industry desperate for talent and workers, an industry with plenty of money to pay them good salaries with 14% unemployment, is a damn shame. Kids also largely are enamored by the urban life, big cities with convenient trains, bike paths, health food stores and Internet coffee shops. They have been taught small towns are shit, getting dirty is uncool, and air conditioning is where it's at (pardon my preposition). That's all well and good, but they could have their cake and eat it to by making their town better, having their conveniences and chosen luxuries while still working a little dirtier than a big city dream job as a video game designer or bicycle frame engineer.

All of those things require what I do, what my industry does. They could do it here, where there's a better working condition than China (and not nearly as environmentally worse, ironically), but the school system is more concerned with itself and its image--which in turn, does a disservice for all involved. They often sell a dream with little regard to how it's working out in the long run.

That's just here. However, my industry is world-wide, and I talk to a lot of folks, young and old, educated and laborer, that all are scratching their heads just as often as I.
 
Ever notice how the two people here with the most pungent common sense are you and PeeB ?

I have.
The intended point (which I figured was too obvious to belabor) was that neither of you finished highschool.

Direct correlation there.

:face:
 
Yak":k92898xc said:
The intended point (which I figured was too obvious to belabor) was that neither of you finished highschool.

Direct correlation there.
Well, I took it as a direct compliment, and you can't take it back. :heart:

I actually had no idea PeeB didn't finish school, either. I mean, it makes sense, but at the same time, had he said, "Yeah, I have a Masters in ___________ " I might have bought that, too.
 
Actually I finished High School, it was College I didn't Finnish.

I quit when I realized the only thing I was being taught was to tell someone exactly what I was being instructed to tell them in the exact manner and form I was being instructed to tell them. Thinking in it's purest sense is not required.. It's more rote memory than anything.. Don't misunderstand, Rote 'learning' is useful for mathematics (and science, but it's still mathematical ) formula and what not but it doesn't teach one to think.

Having said that I'm not anti-higher education. If I ran the joint I'd streamline the process though. A business degree could be taught in 12-16 months or so if we didn't waste their time cramming "Horror Film 101" and "God or No God, That is the question 137" into the curriculum. A science degree really doesn't need "Shakespearean Sonnet's 321" ..
Conversely an Art degree doesn't need "Calculus 217" and a Veterinarian doesn't need "String Theory 482"

Teach people what they need... they can fill in the blanks on their own time.

AND even worse don't call a CDL School " Truck Driving College".. it's a trade school (a poor one but still) And there is nothing wrong with trade schools as higher education.. Focused learning is a good thing.
 
Listen to PeeB...he's more educated than I am...I had to go back two years later for my Good Enough Diploma. :lol:

He's right though, the superfluous college classes that extend the four year stay at New-Adult Daycare are useless (but fun, I guess, to some) material to make sure tuitions are plump.

At least CDL training gives folks that go there something; art school hasn't produced as many good artists, per attendance and completion. Especially for the kind of dough they ask for. Art school. Feh. :lol:
 
My wife attended school in the Soviet Union. She is amazed that college students here have to take so called "core curriculum" course the first 2 years. She spent 4 years working on her degree (a soft one :x ) with only major courses. If you didn't get the basics in high school you are out of luck in college.

edited for puur spellin
 
Education systems have always reflected the society that they exist in and the demands that society wants to impose on them. At one time education was focused on "learning and knowledge" but with our Corporate/Commerce dominated society we've turned our University system into High Tech Trade schools that try and turn out the "high skill" workers the Corporations want, ready to turn out the goods and gadgets they want us to buy and consume. As one of my managers at a mill I worked at said "... I don't want 'em to think, just get the product out the damn door." We are a society focussed on PROCESS, not THOUGHT so we get what we demand in our education system. If that were'nt so, we would change it. :twisted: Onward thru the Fog :twisted:
 
Kyle said: "....I watched my peers dwindle in confidence, financially, and emotionally as they adhered to this unidirectional scholastic path, it became an important lesson for me: don't walk down that dark alley, you'll get mugged. How do I know? I've watched it happen. I didn't need first-hand experience to teach me that."

What I find amazing is that Kyle got it......while most of us didn't....and suffered for it for the rest of our lives. Good for you, having uncommon sense...6 years of college and still dumb and a rock.
 
I went to a university for one year and then dropped out when I had a kid at 20. No problem, I'm a hard worker and have a personality where if I can get them to actually give me an interview I can get the job most of the time. Most of my friends stayed in college and have no kids. I am the one doing off better. :scratch:

I got the life experience they didn't fast and in a hurry though. I started an industrial job at 19 working 6 12's a week when I found out about the baby. I felt I learned more about life and responsibility in a month in an oil pipe manufacturer than the whole year at USM.

Now where I work the problem is I can't get that interview with out a degree, need to go back but the idea taking a three hour long class on music history make me want to run back to the mill. I like music but after an hour of talking about Bach's child hood and nothing about music composition or the like , I just zone out.

They make it easy for people who shouldn't be in college to survive where they shouldn't be able to, they worry about making the college look good and not about what you'd learn. I'd make 110 on my chemistry 101 test but they wanted us to do 6 hours of online home work a week and they'd give you a 100 test grade for it. The online home work was easy because if you got the answer wrong it'd show you the answer and give you the same question again. The online course made sure there was not skipping through the home work either, forced you go through the whole problem, there was not skipping to the end and inputting the answer. Spoke with my professor and told him that I was not doing the ignorant online crap and he agreed it was ridiculous but said there was nothing he could do about it. Kids making 60's and 50's on their tests made higher grades than me because they did online learning where you got a hundred if you learned nothing and just spent the time. :evil:

Sorry for the rant.
 
i.keenum":ic1kwl3g said:
They make it easy for people who shouldn't be in college to survive where they shouldn't be able to, they worry about making the college look good and not about what you'd learn. I'd make 110 on my chemistry 101 test but they wanted us to do 6 hours of online home work a week and they'd give you a 100 test grade for it. The online home work was easy because if you got the answer wrong it'd show you the answer and give you the same question again. The online course made sure there was not skipping through the home work either, forced you go through the whole problem, there was not skipping to the end and inputting the answer. Spoke with my professor and told him that I was not doing the ignorant online crap and he agreed it was ridiculous but said there was nothing he could do about it. Kids making 60's and 50's on their tests made higher grades than me because they did online learning where you got a hundred if you learned nothing and just spent the time. :evil:

Sorry for the rant.
Higher ed has become factories turning out sheepskins for people so HR departments can look, see a sheepskin, and put it in the 'second look' pile. They have a sheepskin so it must be important. If it wasn't important, then they have have wasted their time and money which makes them foolish/stupid. They don't want to feel stupid/foolish ergo it must be important. It is like people, having bought a piece of crap, will recommend it to you.
Used to be you "can't get a good job without a HS diploma". Then everyone got a HS diploma. Bar has been raised. "Can't get a good job without a degree". Bar raised. "can't get a good job without an advanced degree". Pretty soon you'll have to a Doctorate to be a bank teller...but then you would be "over qualified" and they won't hire you anyway! Son has two degrees, works as a part time teacher. One of the degrees is to be a middle-school math teacher. Go figure!
 
What poured gas on the "education" fire was the "civil rights" legislation that forced human resource departments to come up with an "objective" reason why they hired somebody civilised instead of a street thug from the inner city with sub-minimum mental ability.

It pushes the conditioned "racist" button, but all the old cliches are true, "racial" or not. And the people who had enough motivation to at least drift through a bit of "higher education" tended to be color-sortable -- a pattern that time hasn't changed much.

As with anything else, every attempt to impose "justice" only imposes injustice.

In some fields, it's a way to keep worthless college programs going at gunpoint. You CANNOT be a teacher in a public school, for example, unless you have several pieces of very expensive paper that prove you're a robot. Same with "counseling" and other rackets. Without that, most of the people in both fields would be counter help at Booger King.

:face:
 
It's an inevitable pattern. When an institution begins, it has a practical, goal-oriented, few/no frills outlook. But a mature institution is populated by people who are protecting their prerogatives and self interests. Doesn't matter whether it's Hogwash U, GM or the United States congress. At some point soaking up benefits and pensions takes over.
 
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