Imperfections To Be Expected?

[plumbernater]

This is even better we blame it on the IRA.

 

[Rusty Mouse]

I would like to say that peterson has a great pipe and the old petersons ive aquired are nice the new ive been seeing have gone down in quality. You probably have a bean counter there thats saying to not be so picky about the brair that is used, as we speak they are making wood filler. SO there you go. I still like their pipes. And I still have a chevy that will out run a ford :roll:

No question, I like their pipes too, 'tis why I have 4 out of my humble 9 pipes. Fills, scratches and imperfections in the briar I can overlook as it's a natural material but the stem I personally think should be flawless or near so.

 

[Rusty Mouse]

I'm in agreement with Zeno here. Even when I was just starting, quality was paramount to me, even though I was only spending $50 to $100 on a pipe. That $50 pipe had better not have fills and not have any workmanship flaws. There are a ton of other factors that come with price, like the quality of the workmanship for example, but you shouldn't see workmanship mistakes. Those should just not be allowed to leave a factory if you're a respectable company.

My factory pipes are down to 4, but both Bjarnes, the Savinelli, and the Brebbia are all great smokers and excellent lookers. I didn't pay more than $75 for each and only paid $40 for the Brebbia. No fills or workmanship flaws.

This just goes to show that opinions will differ upon experiences. I actually just retuned a Bjarne last week as it wasn't at all like it was depicted by the vendor. The shape I could live with however the problem was once again in the stem, the bore, towards the lip end had not been fully drilled out, would have most definitely impeded its performance, as well, the chamber was incredibly off centre. This was a $100.00 Bjarne, I haven't given up on Bjarne pipes (though under the circumstances I may have to as supplies are running dry) but no matter the company, there's always gonna be one fellow with a bad experience.

 

[Boulder]

I would like to say that peterson has a great pipe and the old petersons ive aquired are nice the new ive been seeing have gone down in quality. You probably have a bean counter there thats saying to not be so picky about the brair that is used, as we speak they are making wood filler. SO there you go. I still like their pipes. And I still have a chevy that will out run a ford :roll:

I only read about such complaints about products shipped to America, why is that?

Fills are not considered an imperfection as long as it is in the correct grade/series of pipe.

Double stamping should never occur if it cant be superimposed over existing stamp (to me anyway).

I think Pete's are good smokers and not knocking them or and Brand of pipe.

Just been saying, you should get what is advertised unless informed otherwise in advance of purchase and price is acceptable.

I luv to save money and given the choice of saving bucks on a second would do so as a smoker and not collector if the price is right.

 

[dshpipes]

I'm in agreement with Zeno here. Even when I was just starting, quality was paramount to me, even though I was only spending $50 to $100 on a pipe. That $50 pipe had better not have fills and not have any workmanship flaws. There are a ton of other factors that come with price, like the quality of the workmanship for example, but you shouldn't see workmanship mistakes. Those should just not be allowed to leave a factory if you're a respectable company.

My factory pipes are down to 4, but both Bjarnes, the Savinelli, and the Brebbia are all great smokers and excellent lookers. I didn't pay more than $75 for each and only paid $40 for the Brebbia. No fills or workmanship flaws.

This just goes to show that opinions will differ upon experiences. I actually just retuned a Bjarne last week as it wasn't at all like it was depicted by the vendor. The shape I could live with however the problem was once again in the stem, the bore, towards the lip end had not been fully drilled out, would have most definitely impeded its performance, as well, the chamber was incredibly off centre. This was a $100.00 Bjarne, I haven't given up on Bjarne pipes (though under the circumstances I may have to as supplies are running dry) but no matter the company, there's always gonna be one fellow with a bad experience.

In reference to Bjarne, I love Bjarne pipes, but I won't lie about it. Out of the 13 pipes that I had at one time, 2 weren't exactly perfect. Couldn't pass a pipe cleaner(in a straight pipe), restricted air flow, etc. So I'll be the first to acknowledge that not all Bjarne factory pipes were or are perfect. However, 11 out of 13 times they're stellar.

Watching all the new input on the topic has my mind swaying as well, so I won't put anymore to think about on the table... except to say that it sounds like you're the kind of person who demands excellence in the objects he spends his money on and, if I'm reading you correctly, you will be unhappy if you compromise that.

 

[Rusty Mouse]

I'm in agreement with Zeno here. Even when I was just starting, quality was paramount to me, even though I was only spending $50 to $100 on a pipe. That $50 pipe had better not have fills and not have any workmanship flaws. There are a ton of other factors that come with price, like the quality of the workmanship for example, but you shouldn't see workmanship mistakes. Those should just not be allowed to leave a factory if you're a respectable company.

My factory pipes are down to 4, but both Bjarnes, the Savinelli, and the Brebbia are all great smokers and excellent lookers. I didn't pay more than $75 for each and only paid $40 for the Brebbia. No fills or workmanship flaws.

This just goes to show that opinions will differ upon experiences. I actually just retuned a Bjarne last week as it wasn't at all like it was depicted by the vendor. The shape I could live with however the problem was once again in the stem, the bore, towards the lip end had not been fully drilled out, would have most definitely impeded its performance, as well, the chamber was incredibly off centre. This was a $100.00 Bjarne, I haven't given up on Bjarne pipes (though under the circumstances I may have to as supplies are running dry) but no matter the company, there's always gonna be one fellow with a bad experience.

In reference to Bjarne, I love Bjarne pipes, but I won't lie about it. Out of the 13 pipes that I had at one time, 2 weren't exactly perfect. Couldn't pass a pipe cleaner(in a straight pipe), restricted air flow, etc. So I'll be the first to acknowledge that not all Bjarne factory pipes were or are perfect. However, 11 out of 13 times they're stellar.

Watching all the new input on the topic has my mind swaying as well, so I won't put anymore to think about on the table... except to say that it sounds like you're the kind of person who demands excellence in the objects he spends his money on and, if I'm reading you correctly, you will be unhappy if you compromise that.

Like a book my friend, like-a-book. I really don't think I'm horribly off base if I expect great quality from things I buy, though these days it may take some digging, but you're right, I just can't move past issues like this as hard as I try. I too get a bit offended when companies just throw out slop and say "They'll eat it".

 

[plumbernater]

Ive always heard if you settle for some thing you will get more than you want. This is suppose to be sarcastic. That is what the internet has done for buying things .You really dont know what you have till we get it. Make sure you are happy with your pipe or you will kick your self from now on for not trying to make it right. Its just a little time for them to fix or replace.

 

[Rusty Mouse]

Ive always heard if you settle for some thing you will get more than you want. This is suppose to be sarcastic. That is what the internet has done for buying things .You really dont know what you have till we get it. Make sure you are happy with your pipe or you will kick your self from now on for not trying to make it right. Its just a little time for them to fix or replace.

Luckily I'll have the weekend to see how I feel, come Monday, I'll have decided what I want to do.

 

[Kyle Weiss]

:scratch:

:cat:

It's imperfections in my brylon I really hate, you know, when they fill it with actual briar. That just irks me.

8)

 

[vaperfavour]

LOl@ Kyle. Imperfections are not only common, but shouyld be expected at that price point.

 

[Rusty Mouse]

:scratch:

:cat:

It's imperfections in my brylon I really hate, you know, when they fill it with actual briar. That just irks me.

8)

Haha, smart ass.

 

[Dutch]

Just my personal opinion, but I think quality is in the eye of the QA department of any individual business. It just depends on what that business prefers to produce, and what reputation they strive to have. You can take any industry, automobiles for example, and you can see what I'm referring to.

When it comes to briar and meershaum pipes, each individual pipemaker has their own individual grading system. Being as this is the case, it is the brand you choose which will usually determine the quality assurance of that particular brand.

It's not how much you spend, it's who you choose to do business with that should determine the level of quality that you should expect.

This is exactly why some consumers can't understand why some pipes command such high prices.

Those companies who have the higher standards, scrap a lot more briar, and sell their seconds and thirds under different brand names, in order to not tarnish the reputation of the brand they stamp on their firsts.

The reality to it is, briar and meershaum are naturally occurring materials, and it takes quite a master craftsman to produce some of the fine examples of workmanship we see today.

If you want to prove to yourself just how much know how and experience it takes, buy a block of briar and try your hand. My guess is, some folks would be working for less than a dollar an hour, by the time they finished a pipe, and sold it for $100.

 

[dshpipes]

Just my personal opinion, but I think quality is in the eye of the QA department of any individual business. It just depends on what that business prefers to produce, and what reputation they strive to have. You can take any industry, automobiles for example, and you can see what I'm referring to.

When it comes to briar and meershaum pipes, each individual pipemaker has their own individual grading system. Being as this is the case, it is the brand you choose which will usually determine the quality assurance of that particular brand.

It's not how much you spend, it's who you choose to do business with that should determine the level of quality that you should expect.

This is exactly why some consumers can't understand why some pipes command such high prices.

Those companies who have the higher standards, scrap a lot more briar, and sell their seconds and thirds under different brand names, in order to not tarnish the reputation of the brand they stamp on their firsts.

The reality to it is, briar and meershaum are naturally occurring materials, and it takes quite a master craftsman to produce some of the fine examples of workmanship we see today.

If you want to prove to yourself just how much know how and experience it takes, buy a block of briar and try your hand. My guess is, some folks would be working for less than a dollar an hour, by the time they finished a pipe, and sold it for $100.

Good observations. This is why I've come to only buying from artisans now. I trust that when their name is on the line, they will insist upon the best possible result that they can produce every time. That's a very nice quality guarantee.

Let us know what you decide. I'm sure it will be the right decision.

 

[acme]

I just read this whole thread. I have lots of thoughts. Trickery on the part of a maker is not acceptable. I don't have a problem with that in any way. A lie is a lie. What a given purchaser considers a flaw may not be a piece of trickery on the part of the maker, though. A person working from a habitual 1985 price frame is not going to get what they used to get. That is not trickery on the part of the maker. There has to be a mutual benefit for seller and buyer or you get something else.

I used to tape almost everything that I watched on television because of my viewing habits. (Not going to go into it.) I bought my first VCR ever about 20 years ago. It lasted thirteen years. About the time VCRs started being phased out, I started looking for a replacement. What I discovered after four seperate purchases of gradulally "higher quality" (read: more expensive) VCRs, that I could no longer find a VCR that woiuld function for more than six months. The failure was because there was not adequate benefit to quality VCR makers to continue. Another kind of company took over what was left of the demand. It does not matter the reason that it became that way, woe to a buying community that through their own efforts, or through external influences (think of buggy whips or VCRs), bring about a state where the maker can not derive adequte benefit.

I listened in on a conversation Friday. Someone told me that an auto repair shop charges 100 dollars an hour for their labor. I am not attempting to belittle mechanics, but there are a lot of them out there - it is not a rare skill.

A pipe maker skill is more rare. I don't know of any pipe makers who figure on making a 100 dollars an hour, I certainly don't, but for the sake of what follows, lets place the value of a pipe maker's time as the same as an auto mechanics work.

A fifty dollar pipe is thirty minutes work, minus the cost of the wood, the stem, the sand paper, stain, shipping all of these materials to and from the factory, losses due to flawed material, the mark up from the re-seller, and I bet there are a dozen more costs that I am missing.

A generous estimate puts you down to ten or fifteen minutes of people-time on your fifty dollar pipe. Holy cow Bqtmamn, if the thing works at all, you might consider yourself lucky, in my opinion. Not only is the dollar not worth what it used to be here, but the exchange rates have de-valued it further.

Next, if you are purchasing, essentially sight un-seen, through an internet site, you are at greater risk of problems, That risk is reflected in your price. An internet site can sell for less because they have less overhead than a B&M shop. You want to see the pipe and satisfy yourself that it is flawless, put down your money and go to a B&M - they need your money.

Another next, there are different kinds of flaws. A pit(s) in a piece of wood that spent its life underground should not be a surprise. I think that a pipe with a pit or two is not cause to sell cheap, it is the rare piece of wood that has no flaws that gets a jacked up price. Less excited about fills, though. That is a limp attempt to lie. (This is just my own set of values. In most cases, I don't mind letting nature show itself. I have made some turnings where the worms have removed more wood than remains in a finished bowl or goblet. I charge more for it too.) However, it used to be the custom to fill voids and pits in pipes. Just because you or I have descided that fills are no longer acceptable, does not mean that another (the maker of cheap pipes, in this case) need feel obligated to conform to your changing expectations.

Then, there are flaws in process. These come in two types; things you can modify after the fact and those that you can't.

If a tobacco chamber is cut or drilled, and it isn't quite right, it can be re-drilled or re-cut. The tobacco chamber is going to be different than originally intended, but may still result in good work. If it can't be made right, then the stummel gets put aside. (More about that later.) The same goes with sanding or staining. If I sand a pipe to 400 grit, and then find a 100 grit scratch that I missed, I don't throw away the pipe, I can fix it by returning to 150 grit and working my way back up.

A hand-cut stem is the same way. (I wouldn't sell a hand-cut stem for less than the price of your fifty-dollar pipe.) If I make an error that can't be corrected, I will put it aside and later attach it to that stummel with the un-acceptable flaw - that will be my pipe to smoke.

Some things are capable of being fixed, but not worth the effort. If I were preparing to put a relatively un-modified, molded stem on a pipe and discovered a flaw in it, that gets cut up for use elsewhere or trashed.

Lastly, there are the errors that can't be fixed but are either not fatal or (harkening back to the natural world) just the way it is. They are either done "perfectly" the first time or not. I think of them as performace art. A signature on a piece of art is that way. Someone mentioned putting a stamp back into a too-shallow or otherwise incomplete impression. I actually tried that on several pipes when I was learning how to stamp a pipe. I used a magnifying glass and everything. Fat chance. A stamp is a signature. It gets done once and is what it is.

Much of what has preceeded is either opinion or proceeded from opinion,
anthony

 

[Rusty Mouse]

Well said Anthony, I think I understand that you're not exactly trying to make a point here but know that I fully understand all the risks of buying online (I'm limited as I'm 4 hours from any decent B&M shop whatsoever), I would never buy from someone without a reasonable return policy, online or not. I'm not one to settle for anything, I get what I want and if what I want is what I perceive to be perfection than I shall get it, even if it means spending a bit more money and a lot more time, which I have done and will probably continue to do.
Pertaining to the actual briar, I also understand it's characteristics, as a carpenter myself I love the uniqueness of any wood and I appreciate any pit (short of a giant crater in my pipe, that isn't the chamber mind you) any knot or grain pattern, whatever the wood shows tells a story to me. This problem lies in the stem.
I understand what I'm paying for in my pipes to a degree. I know that less fills equals more money, more bling equals more money, nicer grain equals more money, sandblasting or rustication usually equals less money, time and attention to detail equals more money, and so on. All of these things make perfect sense, and I'm not arguing that, I think the biggest debate in this thread is "Is it acceptable for a company of any standard to dish out whatever crap they want and say 'They'll buy it'?" I think no. I think if a company of any sort is going to put out garbage without making it perfectly clear that it is so in the promotion of their product, then said crap should remain at whatever factory it came from, companies like that are insulting. Let it be known that this insulting company I speak of is most definitely NOT Peterson. Far from it.
I know that no matter how thorough a company's quality control department may be, they're is always going to be one that slips through the cracks. This pipe for example, I can totally see how, the stem is bright amber, the defect is very small and on the bottom of the stem and without the right light and the right set of eyes it could stay unseen for the life of the pipe. I however am a perfectionist to somewhat of a problematic extent, so fully knowing that I will not always be 100% satisfied with the things I purchase, especially online, I make note of it, weigh the pro's and con's and take a dive.
Again, not sure what you were trying to tell me Anthony, I just wanted to make it perfectly clear, I know that no pipe will be perfect, and I'm okay with that, it just so happens that my erk point is when the stem gets buggered up.
Thank you, and a belated welcome by the way.

 

[dshpipes]

I understand what I'm paying for in my pipes to a degree. I know that less fills equals more money, more bling equals more money, nicer grain equals more money, sandblasting or rustication usually equals less money, time and attention to detail equals more money, and so on. All of these things make perfect sense, and I'm not arguing that, I think the biggest debate in this thread is "Is it acceptable for a company of any standard to dish out whatever crap they want and say 'They'll buy it'?" I think no. I think if a company of any sort is going to put out garbage without making it perfectly clear that it is so in the promotion of their product, then said crap should remain at whatever factory it came from, companies like that are insulting.

Hit the nail right on the head, there, my friend.

 

[Kyle Weiss]

*shrug*

I can see how folks can assume what's happening in the pipe manufacturing world is akin to the rest of the product realm we see, food containers staying the same price but holding less, metal turning to plastic parts, plastic parts getting thinner and thinner, clothing having less threads, anything to save a buck or two, or charge the same amount for a different product...

..I just don't think this is a ubiquitous observation and skepticism with all consumables we purchase, pipes or otherwise. Hell, you should read the conversations that come up when people want to grab torches and pitchforks and storm the tobacco blenders' places because they feel their quality is slipping, too.

So this will likely be one of those "can of worms" conversations that people are going to take sides on. About the only conclusion that seems to logically have been gleaned so far is "You get what you pay for." Well, f-ing duh. Add a little "caveat emptor" so someone isn't losing sleep over their purchase (whatever that means to them) and we have a winner. For those with more scrutiny, I have an easy answer: don't buy it on the Internet. Like the Wal-Mart syndrome, people want it NOW, want it BEST, and CHEAPEST. Well, good luck with that. If you can't see every detail first-hand, you shouldn't be buying pipes from a distance, because the vendor's/maker's eye isn't as good as yours.

Expectations are a bitch to get dashed when you get a pipe you aren't happy with, and like tobacco that inevitably will change for some reason (as if the ignored concept of grown/harvested products changing for many reasons needs mentioning again), whining about it after you bought it just ain't gonna do much except make merry-go-round threads on BoB. You can blame the maker, blame the product, but don't forget to blame yourself for getting duped, otherwise, a consumer revolution is going to be pretty silly.


8)

 

[user 2031]

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[Kyle Weiss]

Don't I remember you trying to decide on here whether or not to return a pipe awhile back because it didn't meet your standards??? :lol:

I personally have had pretty decent luck buying over the internet. I'd say 90/10 or better. I've never regretted sending back the one or two that I was disappointed with. But most of the pipes I've received from the major retailers have exceeded my expectations.

You're totally right: and this is why I'm able to speak based on experience, not purity! That pipe was misrepresented, not just a "Oh, gosh, look at that tiny chip/fill." It had a good side, and a very, very bad, shotgun-blasted-then-filled side (not pictured), and that just wasn't acceptable. As said, I can deal with a fill or two at $50. Not seventeen fills and a badly-glued band, though.

I have great luck buying on eBay and online shops, too--but, I'm not as picky.

It's all chance, and if a person can't deal with that chance, don't buy company-made pipes on the f'ing Internets. 8) The only other option is to buy from a carver that will meet the standards required.

 

[user 2031]

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