puros_bran
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Using Yaks own analogy, I think what he's saying is once ya get a new set o bloomers on Granny she's quite sexy..... :affraid: :affraid:
pipe elitism
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Anonymous
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I'll take your word on that, PeeBee.
But I can tell you that the right stem can do wonders for how cool a pipe looks. :shock:
:face:
But I can tell you that the right stem can do wonders for how cool a pipe looks. :shock:
:face:
ZuluCollector
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Yak, any one of us might choose to drive ourselves crazy exploring the differences between what we know, what we believe, and what we project. Most of us - myself included - don't find those distinctions useful in conversation since any number of epistomological fallacies might be harnessed to impeach any statement we make. If philosophy has contributed anything to self-awareness, it is that a thinking person can have very little confidence in anything we might profess to *know*.
What we believe is something altogether different. And for that we can rely only on the integrity we impute to or infer from the source of any statement. In other words, we consider the source then try to determine the extent to which someone is playing games with our head or trying to have an authentic conversation on the subject at hand.
I cannot speak for Greg Pease but I have passing familiarity with my own motives with respect to how I participate in the pipe hobby.
As someone who grew up in rural Wyoming, I have little or no patience with pretense. And, as somebody who has never managed to be "cool" in my entire life, I feel somewhat safe in saying that I am, if anything, someone who finds the engines of fashion, trendiness, or cool somewhere along the continuum between amusing and repugnant.
It is just my opinion, but I observe that most people who follow fashion for fashion's sake either lack taste or prefer to substitute someone else's good opinion for their own standards so that they might find safety in other peoples' numbers.
I bridle at the notion that either Greg or I are "cool-makers." I may have no control over the outcome that my enthusiasm for a pipe or artisan inspires, but I can speak to my motivations. My intention is to celebrate good hard work, beautiful design, exquisite execution, and good luck with materials.
When I began collecting some years ago I decided that I would champion North American carvers. When I started there was a conspicuous absence of respect for them. Though many considered their work derivative and only good at best, it was my opinion that some of them were accomplishing wonderful things at fair prices. I couldn't afford to try and collect the best of the Danes (and other Scandinavians), but I *could* afford to support North American carvers and I felt wholly within my integrity in so doing.
When I do focus on someone who I believe is making a contribution, it is because I want to see that person receive the support and acknowledgment that they deserve. I have more respect for my fellow collectors and hobbyists than to believe that they would accept my opinion without subjecting it to their own standards and requirements.
I also intentionally speak up for artisans who are not charging outrageous prices for their pipes. I don't have much of an audience, but the people who do read my blog deserve to know that it is possible to buy an outrageously well-made pipe for a fair price.
I spent many years as a professional artist and, as such, I felt the cynical scrutiny of people who couldn't do what I did passing judgment on whether I did it acceptably or poorly. I know what it is to sweat The New York Times' judgment of my talent and taste. I know what it means to be an honest artist. I know what it means to work hard. I also know what it means to fail any of those tests - having failed a few times.
So, if I choose to champion some artisan for doing good work, I do so having paid my dues. I do it honestly. And I do it with a sincere intention to honor someone else for whom I feel respect and admiration.
If this makes me an elitist or a cool-maker in anyone's eyes, then so be it.
What we believe is something altogether different. And for that we can rely only on the integrity we impute to or infer from the source of any statement. In other words, we consider the source then try to determine the extent to which someone is playing games with our head or trying to have an authentic conversation on the subject at hand.
I cannot speak for Greg Pease but I have passing familiarity with my own motives with respect to how I participate in the pipe hobby.
As someone who grew up in rural Wyoming, I have little or no patience with pretense. And, as somebody who has never managed to be "cool" in my entire life, I feel somewhat safe in saying that I am, if anything, someone who finds the engines of fashion, trendiness, or cool somewhere along the continuum between amusing and repugnant.
It is just my opinion, but I observe that most people who follow fashion for fashion's sake either lack taste or prefer to substitute someone else's good opinion for their own standards so that they might find safety in other peoples' numbers.
I bridle at the notion that either Greg or I are "cool-makers." I may have no control over the outcome that my enthusiasm for a pipe or artisan inspires, but I can speak to my motivations. My intention is to celebrate good hard work, beautiful design, exquisite execution, and good luck with materials.
When I began collecting some years ago I decided that I would champion North American carvers. When I started there was a conspicuous absence of respect for them. Though many considered their work derivative and only good at best, it was my opinion that some of them were accomplishing wonderful things at fair prices. I couldn't afford to try and collect the best of the Danes (and other Scandinavians), but I *could* afford to support North American carvers and I felt wholly within my integrity in so doing.
When I do focus on someone who I believe is making a contribution, it is because I want to see that person receive the support and acknowledgment that they deserve. I have more respect for my fellow collectors and hobbyists than to believe that they would accept my opinion without subjecting it to their own standards and requirements.
I also intentionally speak up for artisans who are not charging outrageous prices for their pipes. I don't have much of an audience, but the people who do read my blog deserve to know that it is possible to buy an outrageously well-made pipe for a fair price.
I spent many years as a professional artist and, as such, I felt the cynical scrutiny of people who couldn't do what I did passing judgment on whether I did it acceptably or poorly. I know what it is to sweat The New York Times' judgment of my talent and taste. I know what it means to be an honest artist. I know what it means to work hard. I also know what it means to fail any of those tests - having failed a few times.
So, if I choose to champion some artisan for doing good work, I do so having paid my dues. I do it honestly. And I do it with a sincere intention to honor someone else for whom I feel respect and admiration.
If this makes me an elitist or a cool-maker in anyone's eyes, then so be it.
A
Anonymous
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Neill- I definitely think your a cool guy!!
A
Anonymous
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If "cool" strikes a discordant note with you, I'm sorry. It's the only word I seem to be able to come up with that connotes what it looks like from the (possibly warped) perspective on this end -- one that sees human behavior as simply plain old universal human behavior. Most notably, its predisposition to establish fashions and follow leaders while denying -- as if this were some sort of personal insult to it -- that it ever does either. Something like the way a Victorian woman with seven kids would bristle at the suggestion that she'd ever had sex. And exactly as a cartoon from the 1950s encapsulated it in a group of indentically dressed and groomed organization men. Speech balloons : "I'm a rugged individualist." "Same here." "Ditto." "Me too." The self-image at odds with the observable. At least, in the eyes of children and idiots.
Mark Twain would have a field day with this.
For most people, the "critical appraisal" aspect of pipes is a sidecar at best. People approach pipes hoping to fall in love with them. Or at least, in lust. The twenty-five cent term for this condition is "porosity." Like hungry shoppers at the grocery store, they are not only suggestable,* but tend toward sympathetic resonation with credible opinions. For somebody interested in blowsnails who doesn't go to big shows, doesn't live in (or get to) a big city and consequently hasn't seen hundreds of them, taking your word for it is the quickest and surest way to get to the best possible perspective on them in the shortest time.
The identification mechanism is subject to abuse, sure. (Mickey Mantle smokes Camels !) But if NAR says Floogleheimer makes great pipes, and NAR obviously knows what he's talking about, then Floogleheimer it is. You've accomplished what you set out to. Where is there any sort of insult in this ?
Now. What is it that I'm missing or misconstruing ?
*Those obnoxious adjectives that eBay pipe shills load their presentations with WORK often enough that alienating the rest of us doesn't matter.
:face:
Mark Twain would have a field day with this.
For most people, the "critical appraisal" aspect of pipes is a sidecar at best. People approach pipes hoping to fall in love with them. Or at least, in lust. The twenty-five cent term for this condition is "porosity." Like hungry shoppers at the grocery store, they are not only suggestable,* but tend toward sympathetic resonation with credible opinions. For somebody interested in blowsnails who doesn't go to big shows, doesn't live in (or get to) a big city and consequently hasn't seen hundreds of them, taking your word for it is the quickest and surest way to get to the best possible perspective on them in the shortest time.
The identification mechanism is subject to abuse, sure. (Mickey Mantle smokes Camels !) But if NAR says Floogleheimer makes great pipes, and NAR obviously knows what he's talking about, then Floogleheimer it is. You've accomplished what you set out to. Where is there any sort of insult in this ?
Now. What is it that I'm missing or misconstruing ?
*Those obnoxious adjectives that eBay pipe shills load their presentations with WORK often enough that alienating the rest of us doesn't matter.
:face:
ZuluCollector
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While you may have intended no insult and only to share observations about human nature, reading your posts left me feeling like I was cast as a character in unfolding story about pipe elitism. Since most people here don't know me, I thought it important to clarify my values and how I feel about the subject at hand.
Further, if anybody is at fault for my not being known here, it is me. I may have scribbled a lot on my own blog but I haven't posted all that much here and I don't assume that everyone here would make their way to my blog, read it, or have the patience or interest to figure out who I am. People have better things to do with their time.
Yak, you possess more than a smidgen of language facility. I cannot help but believe that you understand how words like "cool" or "elitism" are freighted with meaning. It's the freight that nuances perception. Forgive me if I'm sensitive about how I'm perceived.
In my experience, when somebody is characterized as "elitist" - even innocently - the word implies that "He thinks he's better than the rest of us." I concur completely with your assessment of American culture that egalitarianism is a cardinal value. People who express superior attitudes about themselves may be tolerated in our culture; they may even be respected, but they are seldom liked. My mother taught me never to settle for respect alone when affection was within reach.
You are correct that I find "cool" off-putting for a host of reasons. First, if through my collecting and enthusiasm I am helping make some artisan cool, I am doing that person no favors. "Cool" is incredibly problematic as a marketplace position. Aside from coolness having the half-life of a fruit fly, it trumpets fashionability over virtues like simplicity, durability, uniqueness, memorability, and usefulness. I value the latter and detest the former. I also detest fickleness. Fashion and fickle are nearly interchangeable terms in my book.
From my limited personal experience, cool-hunters value what something looks like almost to the exclusion of how it functions. I make no apologies for being an aesthete. Beauty thrills me. I have learned, however, that the eye becomes inured to beauty. I have also learned that most of us hope that beauty might be evidence of deeper and more meaningful qualities. If I discover those things are absent, beauty becomes little more than a promise-breaker. Have I mentioned that I find "cool" off-putting?
I agree, as well, that the whole notion of collecting anything is problematic. Pipes are no different. The language of collectors brims with ideologies, narratives, and descriptors that are intended to establish the desirability of some pipes over others. Both personal and commercial transactions cannot help but be driven by some degree of success-seeking, even if that success-seeking may be some form of status-seeking otherwise garbed.
A serious and successful collector of Kaywoodies commands no less respect than his counterparts who collect Danish high-grades. Discernment and self-expression are at the very core of any collecting hobby, whether it's snuff boxes, figurines, fountain pens, or pipes. So you are correct in observing that functional elitism fuels the collecting hobby.
Most of us will tolerate this functional elitism as long as the focus is on one object being superior to another. When the focus shifts to one person being better than another, it offends our sensibilities and undermines our community.
One of the reasons I enjoy looking at other collections is that they are a window to someone else's concept of desirability. An outstanding collection - like Cliff Melick's collection of Negoitas, Talberts, and Downies - takes considerable time, work, and taste to assemble. Cliff's collection reveals the substantive difference between deep pockets and a discerning eye. While Cliff is not poor, he is not wealthy either, except in friendship, love, intellect, and integrity. Anybody with means enough can go out and buy a bunch of pipes and call themselves a collector; that is their prerogative.
I would submit, however, that a great collection shows loyalty to certain curatorial principles. It is built on a carefully nurtured relationship of mutual respect with artisans. It is assembled over time and educates its owner as it grows. Most importantly, a great collection is about how wonderful the pieces that comprise it are, not how wonderful the collector is.
Forgive the length of this post. I seem incapable of expressing myself succinctly. It is one of the reasons I am not cool. Windbags never are.
Further, if anybody is at fault for my not being known here, it is me. I may have scribbled a lot on my own blog but I haven't posted all that much here and I don't assume that everyone here would make their way to my blog, read it, or have the patience or interest to figure out who I am. People have better things to do with their time.
Yak, you possess more than a smidgen of language facility. I cannot help but believe that you understand how words like "cool" or "elitism" are freighted with meaning. It's the freight that nuances perception. Forgive me if I'm sensitive about how I'm perceived.
In my experience, when somebody is characterized as "elitist" - even innocently - the word implies that "He thinks he's better than the rest of us." I concur completely with your assessment of American culture that egalitarianism is a cardinal value. People who express superior attitudes about themselves may be tolerated in our culture; they may even be respected, but they are seldom liked. My mother taught me never to settle for respect alone when affection was within reach.
You are correct that I find "cool" off-putting for a host of reasons. First, if through my collecting and enthusiasm I am helping make some artisan cool, I am doing that person no favors. "Cool" is incredibly problematic as a marketplace position. Aside from coolness having the half-life of a fruit fly, it trumpets fashionability over virtues like simplicity, durability, uniqueness, memorability, and usefulness. I value the latter and detest the former. I also detest fickleness. Fashion and fickle are nearly interchangeable terms in my book.
From my limited personal experience, cool-hunters value what something looks like almost to the exclusion of how it functions. I make no apologies for being an aesthete. Beauty thrills me. I have learned, however, that the eye becomes inured to beauty. I have also learned that most of us hope that beauty might be evidence of deeper and more meaningful qualities. If I discover those things are absent, beauty becomes little more than a promise-breaker. Have I mentioned that I find "cool" off-putting?
I agree, as well, that the whole notion of collecting anything is problematic. Pipes are no different. The language of collectors brims with ideologies, narratives, and descriptors that are intended to establish the desirability of some pipes over others. Both personal and commercial transactions cannot help but be driven by some degree of success-seeking, even if that success-seeking may be some form of status-seeking otherwise garbed.
A serious and successful collector of Kaywoodies commands no less respect than his counterparts who collect Danish high-grades. Discernment and self-expression are at the very core of any collecting hobby, whether it's snuff boxes, figurines, fountain pens, or pipes. So you are correct in observing that functional elitism fuels the collecting hobby.
Most of us will tolerate this functional elitism as long as the focus is on one object being superior to another. When the focus shifts to one person being better than another, it offends our sensibilities and undermines our community.
One of the reasons I enjoy looking at other collections is that they are a window to someone else's concept of desirability. An outstanding collection - like Cliff Melick's collection of Negoitas, Talberts, and Downies - takes considerable time, work, and taste to assemble. Cliff's collection reveals the substantive difference between deep pockets and a discerning eye. While Cliff is not poor, he is not wealthy either, except in friendship, love, intellect, and integrity. Anybody with means enough can go out and buy a bunch of pipes and call themselves a collector; that is their prerogative.
I would submit, however, that a great collection shows loyalty to certain curatorial principles. It is built on a carefully nurtured relationship of mutual respect with artisans. It is assembled over time and educates its owner as it grows. Most importantly, a great collection is about how wonderful the pieces that comprise it are, not how wonderful the collector is.
Forgive the length of this post. I seem incapable of expressing myself succinctly. It is one of the reasons I am not cool. Windbags never are.
Justpipes
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As far as pipe elitism is concerned in the context that this thread started; if you go into a pipe/tobacco shop and the clerks or proprietor act like snobs, turn their noses up, give you the cold shoulder or watch you like a hawk as if you are too poor and they need to keep an eye on you, then just slap the hell out of'um and go on about your business. Maybe they won't treat the next guy the same way! :shock:
Ol'Dawg
Well-known member
It always takes two for elitism to take place...one to act in a manner and one to perceive the actions as elitism. There are various ways to counteract elitism (including physical retaliation). My personal favorite way is to dwell on some insignificant fact or feature of the pipe/shop/tobacco/owner/salesman that would provide a demeaning notation of inferiority or lesser quality. Cleanliness and purity are usually two of the elitist pet peeves, so any comment about the lack of orderliness/cleanliness of any of the above are useful.
Jim..my ha'pence worth if that.
Jim..my ha'pence worth if that.
howellhandmade
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It just goes to show, there's nothing one can do that will be met with universal approval. In every standing ovation there's at least one person sitting with his arms folded. Are Neill and Greg influential? Yes, because they write publicly about things that interest them. Anyone who reads what they write will be influenced, if only by the thought it takes to read. The more acute their observations, the more independent their views, the more solidly their assessments are backed up by readily observable criteria, the more positive their influence. This is, I believe, a service, and not to be confused with pop dol-imitation (for instance, Britney Aguilera wears jeans cut so low that they require additional personal grooming and appear to defy gravity, so all pubescent girls do the same).
Jack
Jack
CaptainYoohman
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Neill, everything Yak said in this thread is just the same thing and sentiment we hear everywhere else, only in more refined words, with some historic parallels and a splash of philosophical reasoning... :lol: Seriously, how different was it from: "I smoke many expensive artisan pipes and all my ... (pick a brand) smoke just as good or better"? or this one: "As far as I'm concerned, anyone spending more than $... (pick an amount) is a snobby moron (or a moronic snob)"? or my favourite: "All these overpriced Danes (pick one - Germans, Japanese, Young Americans etc.) are just a hype created by promoters?" ... It isn't that much different I submit. Just elaborated upon a bit more.
And while trying to prove that one also does smoke corncobs, contrary to his efforts, he is being labelled a "populist-snob" - a snob that pretends to be "like the rest of us"... Why trying? Why care? :?:
See, I really respect and value opinions of the people that DO share my pipe affections, shape preferences, buying habits etc. I will endlessly argue my point with them, explaining why and what... But I will not waste my time, energy and effort explaining all that to a fellow (or a crowd of fellows) that think nothing of MY hobby and that consider me a snob (elitist, idiot etc.). Screw them, Neill! Life's too short to attempt convincing the unconvinceable. Each one of us comes to picking our collecting interests in a different fashion. We all have our own logic, justification and means. I respect every person's right to enjoy the hobby in whichever way that means to them. I even respect their right to tell me (and everyone else) that their way is the only right way. It's part of the hobby. I do, however, refuse and reject their right to tell me (and everyone else) that my way is stupid. Because, IMHO, they usually have no f$%^ng clue about what they're talking about.
Enjoy the beautiful pipes you have and share your passion where it's appreciated.ipe:
And while trying to prove that one also does smoke corncobs, contrary to his efforts, he is being labelled a "populist-snob" - a snob that pretends to be "like the rest of us"... Why trying? Why care? :?:
See, I really respect and value opinions of the people that DO share my pipe affections, shape preferences, buying habits etc. I will endlessly argue my point with them, explaining why and what... But I will not waste my time, energy and effort explaining all that to a fellow (or a crowd of fellows) that think nothing of MY hobby and that consider me a snob (elitist, idiot etc.). Screw them, Neill! Life's too short to attempt convincing the unconvinceable. Each one of us comes to picking our collecting interests in a different fashion. We all have our own logic, justification and means. I respect every person's right to enjoy the hobby in whichever way that means to them. I even respect their right to tell me (and everyone else) that their way is the only right way. It's part of the hobby. I do, however, refuse and reject their right to tell me (and everyone else) that my way is stupid. Because, IMHO, they usually have no f$%^ng clue about what they're talking about.
Enjoy the beautiful pipes you have and share your passion where it's appreciated.
ipe:
A
Anonymous
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I love steakhouses, and I love Burger King. I also hate McDonalds.
P.S. I think I'm channeling Scott Curtis from ASP.
P.S. I think I'm channeling Scott Curtis from ASP.
Carle
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I hope post doesn't sound preachy. It is not my intention.
I have been reading this post with some interest and have decided that I am a pipe elitist. I started smoking about 5 years ago and had pipes that gurgled, got too hot, and the drugstore tobacco wasn't enjoyable. As I learned more about pipes and tobacco, I have found blends that I liked. I happened to buy a Ser Jacopo and really enjoyed it. The pipe looked beautiful, smoked well and didn't gurgle.
Now I will purchase a Ser Jacopo and other pipes that I see as beautiful. Do I consider these pipes better than other pipes? Yes, for me, knowing that my knowledge and experience is limited. I have a modest amount of money and I buy what pleases me. My perception of beauty and pleasure in smoking a pipe is highly subjective. Since this is the case, I don't judge another person because of their sense of what is beautiful or how they spend their money.
When another member purchases a Peterson, Corncob or a high end pipe, I am happy for them. It gives them pleasure. If I spent my time envying other people's possessions, I would derive less pleasure from this hobby and my life in general. I can own what some other people have if I acquired the skills in an area that would bring me a higher income. Is this worth it? Not at this point of my life. I am happy doing what I do.
There are people who set high standards for themselves in different areas of their lives. When people acquire skills in art, beauty, form, function and history in an area, eg. pipes, I tend to listen to them. They have invested their time, talent and money to pursue this knowledge. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to learn from these people and admire their acquisitions. From this experience, my appreciation and knowledge for this hobby increases.
I have been reading this post with some interest and have decided that I am a pipe elitist. I started smoking about 5 years ago and had pipes that gurgled, got too hot, and the drugstore tobacco wasn't enjoyable. As I learned more about pipes and tobacco, I have found blends that I liked. I happened to buy a Ser Jacopo and really enjoyed it. The pipe looked beautiful, smoked well and didn't gurgle.
Now I will purchase a Ser Jacopo and other pipes that I see as beautiful. Do I consider these pipes better than other pipes? Yes, for me, knowing that my knowledge and experience is limited. I have a modest amount of money and I buy what pleases me. My perception of beauty and pleasure in smoking a pipe is highly subjective. Since this is the case, I don't judge another person because of their sense of what is beautiful or how they spend their money.
When another member purchases a Peterson, Corncob or a high end pipe, I am happy for them. It gives them pleasure. If I spent my time envying other people's possessions, I would derive less pleasure from this hobby and my life in general. I can own what some other people have if I acquired the skills in an area that would bring me a higher income. Is this worth it? Not at this point of my life. I am happy doing what I do.
There are people who set high standards for themselves in different areas of their lives. When people acquire skills in art, beauty, form, function and history in an area, eg. pipes, I tend to listen to them. They have invested their time, talent and money to pursue this knowledge. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to learn from these people and admire their acquisitions. From this experience, my appreciation and knowledge for this hobby increases.
A
Anonymous
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I don't mind answering for what I say, but no way am I responsible for what you imagine that I say.Captain Yoomam":k8z0kltt said:
Since you pose the question, I'll tell you how it was different.
It was different in that I didn't say (or allege) any of the sort of things you're lumping it in with. Nor was the spirit or tone of it comparable.
I pointed out that the Pipe Fancy (as the English put it) is no different from any other one. Elites and leaders emerge in it, because this is the way people are wired. They do this with everything. When it's a quality elite, with a sense of proportion, everyone benefits. When it's a low quality one, people wind up displaying inane bumper stickers like "It's an off-road thing -- You wouldn't understand."
What strikes me as bizarre is that people have an inborn drive to excel at things, and to recognise those who do, but are taught to be ashamed of it and embarassed (even apologetic) when they stand out. Bizarre enough that I ventured to broach the topic (expecting fllack) for the sake of airing it out, in hopes of getting a discussion of it going. A clear-the-air one.
Some games you have no choice but to play. Others are optional. IMHO, the "Aw shucks, ma'am, I'm just your everyday, garden variety pipe connoisseur" is one of the optional ones.
:face:
CaptainYoohman
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Wow, my first clash here. That didn’t take long. 8)
Yak:
No, I don’t believe I imagined what you’ve sad (and I am going to spell your forum name correctly, although you didn’t afford me the same courtesy). Your posts, while written and reasoned seemingly well, have offended at least one person, whom I know personally and hold in high regards; thus, you have achieved the exact opposite of what you declare your intentions were (how’s that for a complex sentence? ).
People admiring Rembrandt paintings that are worth many millions of dollars don’t usually scoff at them saying: “I don’t have THAT kind of money for a painting. My nephew’s work looks just like it.” However; substitute painting for “Pipe” and nephew for “Dr. Grabow” and here we have a phrase the gist of which I have read and heard many times in many variations and at various forums. No doubt, you have too. But I took an issue with your approach to explain this phenomenon on a natural historical-philosophical basis; hence, somehow justifying this as right. Yes, you didn’t say that a Dr. Grabow pipe is same or better than a pipe made by Lars Ivarsson, but it FELT that you approve of other people saying that. At least to me it did. It did to Neill as well.
I’ve participated in a number of fairly serious and fairly funny pipe-related discussions between “technical perfectionists”, “artistry lovers” and “price-value seekers” that ended both peacefully and vice versa. When such discussions cross the line of accepting one’s attitude to a hobby and move to judging such attitude beyond a friendly poke, it stops being civilized and tolerant for me. :x
I don’t judge guys smoking corn cobs. It’s their business, their money and their enjoyment. I used to live and support my family on five bucks an hour working 12 hours a day, seven days a week. I understand the issue of affordability. But I cannot stand a guy smoking corn cobs and pompously preaching that everything else is just overpriced crap for the snobs and showoffs. This might be natural for some, but that doesn't make it right.
ipe:
Yak:
No, I don’t believe I imagined what you’ve sad (and I am going to spell your forum name correctly, although you didn’t afford me the same courtesy). Your posts, while written and reasoned seemingly well, have offended at least one person, whom I know personally and hold in high regards; thus, you have achieved the exact opposite of what you declare your intentions were (how’s that for a complex sentence?
).People admiring Rembrandt paintings that are worth many millions of dollars don’t usually scoff at them saying: “I don’t have THAT kind of money for a painting. My nephew’s work looks just like it.” However; substitute painting for “Pipe” and nephew for “Dr. Grabow” and here we have a phrase the gist of which I have read and heard many times in many variations and at various forums. No doubt, you have too. But I took an issue with your approach to explain this phenomenon on a natural historical-philosophical basis; hence, somehow justifying this as right. Yes, you didn’t say that a Dr. Grabow pipe is same or better than a pipe made by Lars Ivarsson, but it FELT that you approve of other people saying that. At least to me it did. It did to Neill as well.
I’ve participated in a number of fairly serious and fairly funny pipe-related discussions between “technical perfectionists”, “artistry lovers” and “price-value seekers” that ended both peacefully and vice versa. When such discussions cross the line of accepting one’s attitude to a hobby and move to judging such attitude beyond a friendly poke, it stops being civilized and tolerant for me. :x
I don’t judge guys smoking corn cobs. It’s their business, their money and their enjoyment. I used to live and support my family on five bucks an hour working 12 hours a day, seven days a week. I understand the issue of affordability. But I cannot stand a guy smoking corn cobs and pompously preaching that everything else is just overpriced crap for the snobs and showoffs. This might be natural for some, but that doesn't make it right.
ipe:
puros_bran
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When you get down to it the cob statement has merit.
(Even though I refuse to smoke them, stereotypes and what not).
What it really boils down to is certain folks (none here, well except Ian, ha ha) thinking that because they smoke extremely high dollar pipes they are somehow better than those that don't, I actually read a book by a feller that thinks he is an industry giant because he smokes Blowsnails! WTF?
Neil, DPG, and a few others are pipesmokers I hold in high regard, I don't care if they smoke Grabows or Cholaritukis, that doesn't matter to me, and I don't think my pipe of choice matters to them.
(Even though I refuse to smoke them, stereotypes and what not).
What it really boils down to is certain folks (none here, well except Ian, ha ha) thinking that because they smoke extremely high dollar pipes they are somehow better than those that don't, I actually read a book by a feller that thinks he is an industry giant because he smokes Blowsnails! WTF?
Neil, DPG, and a few others are pipesmokers I hold in high regard, I don't care if they smoke Grabows or Cholaritukis, that doesn't matter to me, and I don't think my pipe of choice matters to them.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Well, as you've noticed, Captain Yoohman, my memory isn't what it used to be I intended no slight on you by it.
That said, I still protest that what you're doing is eisogesis : reading something into what I wrote. Not exegesis (pulling the gist of it out). Go into it assuming that envy and jealousy necessarily motivate people discussing elitism (because they often do), and that's what you'll "find" in it. Assume that the very concept of an"elite" must be a personal put-down rather than an objective appraisal, and it will be one -- to you.
But there's noting about it that makes this have to be the case, and a lot about it that undoes this assumption.
Try it from this angle : The intersection of form and function is the soil in which craft art grows. Golden Age American longrifles, for an example. People aren't satisfied with just a bare minimum tool that will get the job done. They want their furniture, clothes and accoutrements to be nice. To be things of beauty in their own right. Most of the old rifles made were "bare bones," lock-stock-&-barrel-with-a-trigger examples, because that's what people could afford. But even here, as with Shaker furniture, elite (there's that word again) makers like John Philip Beck were notable for the simple, pure, functional elegance they acheived. (Which is about where we're at with contemporary "high end" pipes. Hold the shank extentions and jewelry, please).
There is a heirarchy of acheivement in longrifle history. An elite group at the top of that field of design and craftsmanship. Their finest works survive today because people with a lot of money then were elitists. And because the people who passed them down through the generations were elitists. And because the people who have collected, published on and displayed them are elitists, whether they will or no.
The money issue isn't the big one. It's being fixated on quality. Recognizing it, evaluating it and enjoying it. Elitism. Joe Sixpack wants something cold to wash his barbeque down with ; the elitist wants the microbrew that compliments it. Bach could have slid by, scribbling junk that no one would remember or celebrate today. But he didn't. Because he was an elitist. Ben Wade (back when it was still Ben Wade), Charatan and Dunhill are what they were because they catered to elitists. Same deal today. Elitism is an historical constant, and living in denial of it is just (IMHO) flat-out nuts.
We has met the enemy, and he is us. He's been us from time out of mind.
What I'm trying to accomplish with this is to work through the knee-jerk jumpiness that you had the stones to articulate when a lot of other people were probably seething over it without speaking up. Because they assumed I must be putting people down rather than appraising the situation and their role in it.
So can we just cut the crap and stop wincing when somebody calls a spade a spade ? Quality exists because of elitism. Ditto appreciation of it.
:face:
I intended no slight on you by it.That said, I still protest that what you're doing is eisogesis : reading something into what I wrote. Not exegesis (pulling the gist of it out). Go into it assuming that envy and jealousy necessarily motivate people discussing elitism (because they often do), and that's what you'll "find" in it. Assume that the very concept of an"elite" must be a personal put-down rather than an objective appraisal, and it will be one -- to you.
But there's noting about it that makes this have to be the case, and a lot about it that undoes this assumption.
Try it from this angle : The intersection of form and function is the soil in which craft art grows. Golden Age American longrifles, for an example. People aren't satisfied with just a bare minimum tool that will get the job done. They want their furniture, clothes and accoutrements to be nice. To be things of beauty in their own right. Most of the old rifles made were "bare bones," lock-stock-&-barrel-with-a-trigger examples, because that's what people could afford. But even here, as with Shaker furniture, elite (there's that word again) makers like John Philip Beck were notable for the simple, pure, functional elegance they acheived. (Which is about where we're at with contemporary "high end" pipes. Hold the shank extentions and jewelry, please).
There is a heirarchy of acheivement in longrifle history. An elite group at the top of that field of design and craftsmanship. Their finest works survive today because people with a lot of money then were elitists. And because the people who passed them down through the generations were elitists. And because the people who have collected, published on and displayed them are elitists, whether they will or no.
The money issue isn't the big one. It's being fixated on quality. Recognizing it, evaluating it and enjoying it. Elitism. Joe Sixpack wants something cold to wash his barbeque down with ; the elitist wants the microbrew that compliments it. Bach could have slid by, scribbling junk that no one would remember or celebrate today. But he didn't. Because he was an elitist. Ben Wade (back when it was still Ben Wade), Charatan and Dunhill are what they were because they catered to elitists. Same deal today. Elitism is an historical constant, and living in denial of it is just (IMHO) flat-out nuts.
We has met the enemy, and he is us. He's been us from time out of mind.
What I'm trying to accomplish with this is to work through the knee-jerk jumpiness that you had the stones to articulate when a lot of other people were probably seething over it without speaking up. Because they assumed I must be putting people down rather than appraising the situation and their role in it.
So can we just cut the crap and stop wincing when somebody calls a spade a spade ? Quality exists because of elitism. Ditto appreciation of it.
:face:
Justpipes
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Naw!........."It's a hick thing --- You wouldn't understand." :lol:Yak":fa3s4vtd said:
You got to be a resident of Hickdom to understand! Ask Hermit.
Like I said just slap tha hell out of'um and be done with it! :lol:
Justpipes
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I beg to differ!!!Yak":xycy1clv said:
Those brand new 21st century Dunhills that I have looked that are going for $500+ ain't near the quality of the 20th century 5102 Dunhill that I paid $115 for!
I would say that we are in a era where sometimes lack of quality exist because of elitism.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Just Pipes":u0uewjkd said:
Another elitist connoisseur heard from
:face:
