The Price of Artisan Pipes

[alfredo_buscatti]

I am in no way saying that such artistry should go unrewarded, nor the hours/days needed to produce it. But it's a damn shame that all those pieces that make me swoon from their beauty command such a hefty price tag. Who can possibly afford them? Who buys them? One US pipe maker whose esteem in the pipe community has risen appreciably used to sell his work for about $500.00. It's conceivable that I might be able to afford this, but not a 50-100% increase.

What would I do if I had that talent? How would I price my work? Probably the same as the makers about whose prices I write.

I don't think there is a satisfactory answer to this.

 

[the rev]

when you are the best at hitting a ball over a fence you get twenty million a year, when you are the best at throwing a ball in a basket you get more. When you are the best at making paintings you get millions of dollars for them. When you are the best at making pipes you sell them for three to five thousand dollars when everything all comes together. When you realize that the shop usually takes fifty percent, there are materials to buy, equipment to update and upkeep, marketing to do ect. It is really no wonder that these guys charge what they do. The fact is you don't see many if any pipe makers driving Ferrari or even Mercedes. Most of the top guys live in modest houses and drive family cars. They make less than your average middle management at a big corporation. They are some of the best artisans in the world, and they make less than a middle manager at IBM, or an engineer at a mining company.

I too wish I could buy a pipe from Misha, or Florov, heck even Grant Batson, but I wont for a second say they don't deserve what they get, I think they deserve more. What will I charge if I am ever to reach such a level of artistry and respect? That is an interesting question.

rev

 

[Ocelot55]

Ah yes. The pricing discussion. Rev is right. If you see an artisan pipe, on say smokingpipes.com, retailing for $500, odds are the artisan got paid $250 for it. Materials might be $100. He also might have invested 10-20 hours of labor in that pipe. In the end that's not much to live off of.

On the other hand, some artisan makers are so good at turning out pipes they can finish one in 3-5 hours and sell it for $500.

I try really hard to keep my prices within the range that any serious pipe smoker would be able to afford it without much pain in the wallet, but I don't know if I can realistically keep that up. Seems like the better I get the longer I spend on pipes and the more materials start costing me which drives prices way up. At this point if I managed to sell to a retailer there is little chance of me making any profit.

And there is also a belief among some that price dictates quality. Talk to Dunhill about that.

 

[kaiser83]

There's always artisan cobs for the budget minded folks. I have a few pipes made by brothers here, and will continue to expand that collection (reminds me I need to do an actual review of my Tinsky since he is on BoB) because I enjoy being able to ask different folks to make a creation with just a few requests. Most folks aren't charging $500 and up for pipes, they are a good bit below that, and from awesome guys who will work to make your perfect pipe. If you want an artisan pipe just look around here on BoB at what some of the guys/gal have made and shoot them a message. Everyone I have ordered from so far has been awesome and exceeded expectations.

 

[Dutch]

I remember reading an interview where a pipe carver was asked how long does it take to make a pipe? He responded, "How long does it take to make three?"

His point was, that he usually on average has to throw out 2 blocks for every pipe he finishes. Considering that ebauchon blocks usually cost around $30-$40 each, that would mean that a pipe carver has on average over $100 invested in briar on every pipe he actually finishes.

As Ocelot mentioned, the cut taken by wholesalers and retailers contributes immensely to the retail price. This is one reason I love buying Moretti pipes from Marco Biagini. Selling his pipes on ebay directly negates the wholesale markup, saving me anywhere from 30% to 50%.

If you actually do the math, and consider labor and materials, most pipe carvers really aren't making much over $20 per hour. In today's economy it's easy to conclude that they really aren't overcharging for these fine artisan pieces.

Also, take into consideration resale value. If a pipe is properly taken care of and maintained, a collector can smoke one of these fine pipes for years, and then sell or trade it, and recoup much of his original investment.

 

[Briar Spirit]

I quite often see really beautiful pipes with high price tags and it makes me mad as hell that the price is so high, but when I consider why I am angry at the price tag, is it because I don't agree that the Artisan is charging a reasonable price for his work and I think he's being greedy or is it because I simply don't have that sort of money but want that pipe anyway so I am actually sulking a little bit?

 

[dshpipes]

I quite often see really beautiful pipes with high price tags and it makes me mad as hell that the price is so high, but when I consider why I am angry at the price tag, is it because I don't agree that the Artisan is charging a reasonable price for his work and I think he's being greedy or is it because I simply don't have that sort of money but want that pipe anyway so I am actually sulking a little bit?

Bingo! I've felt this way before for sure. I've always admired pipes by the likes of Teddy Knudsen, S. Bang, Nordh, the Ivarssons, Gracik, etc. etc. but can't even begin to afford them. It can still be a little frustrating when a pipe that grabs your heart pops up, only to see it's price tag in the thousands. Even more frustrating is when you see someone else get that pipe and get a little jealous. There are a few collectors around who are several years younger than me but much better off financially that collect the way I've always wished I could, which makes me feel a tad jealous. It's really silly, but emotions sure are tricky things.

 

[the rev]

Think about it this way, a union construction worker in California is going to make around $30 and hour, with benefits that include vacation and sick pay, and health insurance. He works hard, everyday, but does something that thousands of others can and do, do. Most of the time he is expected to have a fairly small degree of tooling, and all of the taxes and what not are taken care of by the company. Now the company bills him out at at least $75 per hour. They have to pay for the benefits, the taxes on his wages, the price of insurance ect. So now you take a normal construction worker, have him work 12 hours on a pipe that has $50 worth of materials on it, at normal construction worker wages, and you get $950

The fact is, unless you are the top .1 percent of the pipe making world, you can't charge as much as an average construction worker would be billed out at.

I struggle with this, and it will get harder as I get better and my work begins to have a reputation. I don't like it that those that are doing it tough cannot have something beautiful. Not sure how I will remedy it. 1st world problems aye?

rev

 

[KevinM]

I recently bought an artisan pipe -- hand carved from bowl to stem -- on sale from a well-known shop and a recognized carver, for $150. The straight grain is excellent. Birds eye on top. Nice, thick walls. Graceful domed top. Natural finish. No pits, fills or other defects. It's a nice variation on the classic Dublin shape. I was a little reluctant to light it up, because the interior of the bowl was bare wood and displayed the beautiful grain. But light it I did, and I'm surprised how easily this pipe is breaking in. The air passage is probably the largest of all my pipes, and the gentle breathing technique fits this pipe perfectly.

In short, patience and diligence are rewarded.

Chasing the work of "name-brand" carvers is going to put you in cmpetition with buyers for whom price isn't a strong parameter.

 

[glpease]

I quite often see really beautiful pipes with high price tags and it makes me mad as hell that the price is so high, but when I consider why I am angry at the price tag, is it because I don't agree that the Artisan is charging a reasonable price for his work and I think he's being greedy or is it because I simply don't have that sort of money but want that pipe anyway so I am actually sulking a little bit?

Bingo! I've felt this way before for sure. I've always admired pipes by the likes of Teddy Knudsen, S. Bang, Nordh, the Ivarssons, Gracik, etc. etc. but can't even begin to afford them. It can still be a little frustrating when a pipe that grabs your heart pops up, only to see it's price tag in the thousands. Even more frustrating is when you see someone else get that pipe and get a little jealous. There are a few collectors around who are several years younger than me but much better off financially that collect the way I've always wished I could, which makes me feel a tad jealous. It's really silly, but emotions sure are tricky things.

I can relate. I feel very fortunate to have acquired some really nice pipes before the market went where it has. There's no way I can afford many of the beauties I see exhibited today. I got my one Sixten Ivarsson, for example, in a trade, long before anyone thought his pipes should sell for four-digit-dollars. When I was first importing Kent Rasmussen's amazing pipes, they were selling for a few hundred dollars. The first two Peter Heeschen pipes I bought (the ones which induced me to import his work for the first time into the US) were each $135. Times and prices have changed. My discretionary income, alas, has not.

I certainly support the notion that talented craftsmen should be well rewarded for their work, but in some cases, the prices being asked by relative beginners is both ludicrous, and insulting to those who have worked long and hard to establish their position in the market. In too many cases, I've seen copycat work with copycat pricing.

I was looking at the very decent work of a new pipe maker at a show once, and shocked by the arrogance of his pricing. I enquired over things like whom he had worked with, and the names he offered were other relatively new pipe makers, some of whom also price their work according to what better-known makers charge. Interesting.

Market forces prevailed, and he left with most of his pipes unsold, but I have my suspicions as to whether or not a lesson was learned. Obviously, it just wasn't a "good show for selling..."

Rev, the union construction worker in your example has learned his trade, gone through an apprenticeship, paid his dues, and worked hard to become a master tradesman. He didn't just show up at a job site with a tool belt and a hammer demanding $30/hour. And, you're right that many beginning pipe makers struggle long to make a fair wage. But, some guys I've talked to really don't have a clue. Buy a drill press and a lathe, a few blocks of wood and some acrylic rod, and you're instantly a pipe 'artisan.' Those I know who actually do fit into that category have worked very, very hard to get there, honing their craft for a long time before selling a single pipe.

If you really want to look at price and market silliness, look at electric guitars...

 

[Puff Daddy]

For clarification - As an actual union construction tradesman (concrete) in California working at the top of the pay grade for my classification (heavy equipment operator under a Bay Area Teamster agreement), the numbers are more like $47 an hour for total compensation, including pension, vacation and medical. The company I work for (huge global corporation) can compete with the non union companies (independants with maybe 25 - 40 employees) because they work off a smaller percentage of profit and normally have the ability to take on much bigger jobs because they have the resources and ability to do what the indies can not. In many cases it's comparing apples to oranges. The indies collect the same price per yard of concrete as we do, they just give a lot less of it to their employees. They have certain types of jobs we won't bother with, and vice versa. it's a big world, too big for buttonholing.

If you're looking at a $700 Castello Fiamata or a Dunhill Christmas pipe, you might be able to justifiably (from a bohemian perspective) vent some rage over the fact that there are several people getting a cut of that price before the carver actually gets paid a small amount given his time spent on the pipe. You could even justify that this is no more than a $300 pipe with $400 of fees and overhead built in, and I wouldn't say you were wrong. but, it may not otherwise ever grace your doorstep if that were not the case. Everyone's gotta get paid, and so long as it's not a situation where some poor shmuck is being forced to grind em out for sub minimum wage while some fat guy is getting rich being the middleman, then that's just the way the apple works. Now, when Rad Davis manages to carve 4 or 5 pipes a week and net a few hundred after costs, that's just supporting a good skilled craftsman working at or near the top of his pay grade. If you can afford it, then great, you can enjoy the fruits of his labor. If you can't. then there are the inexpensive production pipes.

If the skilled carvers went away because nobody thought the pipes were worth the money, then pretty soon the production pipes would drop in quality because there was neither motivation to maintain the bar, or even a bar to recognize.

 

[Kyle Weiss]

Before this turns into one of "those" conversations now that the subject of artisan pipe prices AND unions have been brought up in the same thread, here's another way to look at it:

Before they could slug 'em over the fence, figuratively, I mean, they had talent and were working hard. Maybe they had the carving skills since birth, but can't get the top briar. Maybe they can get good briar but are a little wonky on the lathe. In either case, the best artisan pipes are from the up-and-coming. The pipe Picassos before they were recognized. I have seen pipes turned by people with no clout that would make more than their fair share of jaws drop. Sometimes they give them away, if not literally, by the skinny price they ask for them--by that, we support them, paving the way so they might become recognized, or just giving them a fun, relaxing way to pass time and make a few bucks.

Consider a not-quite-yet-master artisan pipe maker, and you'll not only make their day, he (or she!) will be supported to confidently make more pipes, and you could have an early piece of piping history. Even if they don't make it that far, you're sure to have a unique pipe with a story, a great smoker, and perhaps even a friend from the transaction(s).

8)

 

[glpease]

Before this turns into one of "those" conversations now that the subject of artisan pipe prices AND unions have been brought up in the same thread, here's another way to look at it:

Before they could slug 'em over the fence, figuratively, I mean, they had talent and were working hard. Maybe they had the carving skills since birth, but can't get the top briar. Maybe they can get good briar but are a little wonky on the lathe. In either case, the best artisan pipes are from the up-and-coming. The pipe Picassos before they were recognized. I have seen pipes turned by people with no clout that would make more than their fair share of jaws drop. Sometimes they give them away, if not literally, by the skinny price they ask for them--by that, we support them, paving the way so they might become recognized, or just giving them a fun, relaxing way to pass time and make a few bucks.

Consider a not-quite-yet-master artisan pipe maker, and you'll not only make their day, he (or she!) will be supported to confidently make more pipes, and you could have an early piece of piping history. Even if they don't make it that far, you're sure to have a unique pipe with a story, a great smoker, and perhaps even a friend from the transaction(s).

8)

Nicely put, Kyle.

 

[the rev]

Yeah I was thinking more along the lines of a drywall guy, and not at prevailing wage jobs.

As for apprentices that is another thing, you don't really get paid for doing your apprentice work as a pipe maker. In fact some people pay for their apprenticeship. You make jack shit, and often you don't really have any journey men besides you to help you out. And that is discounting the fact that many pipe makers started out doing wood work or some kind of art work before hand. Is my years of construction work, sculpture, artwork and high end carpentry completely worthless? And again, we aren't even factoring in the fact that the shop takes half.

Of course I am always biased towards labor, but I think for the ability and artistry that is shown in pipe making, these guys are not at all getting over paid. I mean the closest thing to a rockstar pipe maker is what? Ivarsen? Eltang? I don't see them throwing parties on their yacht

rev

 

[Puff Daddy]

I think we should form a pipe carvers union. I was going to suggest Pipemen's local 69 but quickly realized we'd attract the wrong sort of crowd, especially in San Francisco. Maybe Briarsmiths local 1, which covers everything from the equater north, and the equater south, except Jamaica, cuz you know dey got der own pipe bidness goin on down dere mon :afro:

Rule 1) no dues, bring booze.
Rule2) no pension but there a couple of kots in the back room if you need to crash.
Rule 3) no bullshit. Make a good smoking pipe in whatever physical form fancies you and set a fair market price for it based on your level of expertise, the quality of your materials, and the time you put into it. Factor in a fragment of shop costs, internet service and the occasional bottle of single malt.

Quarterly union meetings will be held to adress grievances and to evaluate new membership (greenhorns). If a brother has sold a pipe and the buyer has written a grievance about it the pipe will be lit and passed around the cousel. If said pipe turns out to be fine the customer wil be roundly lambasted and told to bugger off and go back to stealing lucky strikes from his mommy's handbag. If the pipe turns out to be a real turdknocker, then the carver what made this mess must immediately buy a dram for everyone in attendance and pay back the poor chap in full and appologize to him for bringing shame upon his house.

Then the call goes out for the dancing girls as the free bar is opened and the meeting is called due to pipe elevation issues. All other matters to be continued unil next meeting, gavel falls, where'd that little redhead get off to?......

Briarsmiths local 1, that's how we roll 8)

 

[the rev]

but I don't have the money to be buying rounds everytime I make a shitty pipe



rev

 

[Puff Daddy]

When you gather your start up funds and begin your prioritized allocations, you simply settle on a method of buying two bottles of Lagavulin to every twenty blocks of briar. This should see you through your apprentiship, secure your appearances at the union functions, and serve as the catalyst at that moment when your apprenticeship years have been fulfilled. It's quite simple. When the grand high potentate calls you forward to the foot of the carved briar throne he'll simply ask if you've got more briar or more Lagavulin in your workshop. If you've no Lagavulin left but you've still got a pile of pale billiard stummels, they'll send you away to an interview at Walmart to begin your new career, one you're better suited to. If, hoever, the answer is that you've sold off your stock of pipes and had to pay nary a dram of the peat brine in pennance, then you get shown the secret handshake and the party immediately moves to your house, cuz that's where all the good whisky's at

 

[KevinM]

Marginal pricing for discretionary purchases is veddy interesting. You can go on the internet and find perfectly satisfactory briars for less than $100. (Let's ignore MMs for the moment.) You can do a bit more looking and buy a nice artisan briar for less than $200. Or you can go to one of the en vogue carvers and pay $1,000+. What exactly are you paying for as you move up the price ladder?

If I may offer a possibly apt comparison -- Two painters, a few years back, shared a studio. The venture was only a borderline success, because they had different ideas of what they were doing. Artist I wanted to find and bring to market painters who were on the verge of a breakthrough. He was primarily an agent for other artists, but also handled his own painting and sculptures. Artist II had mastered a dozen or more basic seascapes and repeated them them with minor and major variations. You could call him and order a painting with colors to match your living room. The man is an oil-painting machine, and a good one. His mantra is, "I don't paint to decorate the gallery. I want people to buy them and take them home."

So they went their separate ways, one as a broker for other peoples' work, the other a one-man painting factory. (It's a lot like the history of Italian pipes.)

Pipes are like that, I'd say. The price is dependent on the consumer's perception of value. If you want something attractive to hang on your wall, you can go to a tourist shoppe and buy s print. You can go to Artist II, and he will sell you a signed original that you and your family will enjoy. Or you can go to Artist I and buy something unique for which you pay a premium.

What's "fair" and apprenticeships and union affiliations don't have an impact here. The world of pipe carvers is, I'm afraid, full of 'mute inglorious Miltons.'

 

[beetlejazz]

I really don't see a problem with a craftsman asking whatever price they want. *shrug* No-one's forcing anyone to pay. If work is priced way above what the quality would imply, they will probably not be very succesfull selling their work, but if that's their preference then I don't really see a problem. I don't see it as arrogant either. A craftsman doesn't owe anyone anything because they have made something desireable.

I find pricing paintings the worst part of the process. I know I can sell with my prices, but if the potential buyer doesn't trust their own judgement and eye, they might be turned off by the lack of credencials. And some are not, it depends on the person. Learning to not to feel guilty about pricing as I see fit and just has been a lot of work. I don't owe my paintings to anyone with any price, even if someone likes them. I am far more willing to give a painting away than to sell it with a price I'm not satisfied with. Selling with too low prices would leave such a sour taste. I'd rather just keep painting and forget about selling than do a deal I feel would mock my work.

Perhaps I'm a bit biased here too!

 

[the rev]

I really don't see a problem with a craftsman asking whatever price they want. *shrug* No-one's forcing anyone to pay. If work is priced way above what the quality would imply, they will probably not be very succesfull selling their work, but if that's their preference then I don't really see a problem. I don't see it as arrogant either. A craftsman doesn't owe anyone anything because they have made something desireable.

I find pricing paintings the worst part of the process. I know I can sell with my prices, but if the potential buyer doesn't trust their own judgement and eye, they might be turned off by the lack of credencials. And some are not, it depends on the person. Learning to not to feel guilty about pricing as I see fit and just has been a lot of work. I don't owe my paintings to anyone with any price, even if someone likes them. I am far more willing to give a painting away than to sell it with a price I'm not satisfied with. Selling with too low prices would leave such a sour taste. I'd rather just keep painting and forget about selling than do a deal I feel would mock my work.

Perhaps I'm a bit biased here too!

my mentor told me that if you sell a painting for less than it is worth you not only devalue yourself, and your painting, but also your other customer's paintings. If someone really wants a work, and they cannot afford it, you can gift it to them, or give them a small discount but do not insult your other customers or the work

of course this all becomes subjective, but I get what he was saying

rev