**URGENT** CRIPPLING TAXES ON PIPE TOBACCO PROPOSED

[LIPIPE]

Tim: Thoughtful, scholarly, and well presented argument. What I believe we are witnessing is the failure of economic policy and the inability of government to stimulate economic recovery. Taxation is the only available tool governmental authorities have to generate revenue. Governments do not produce any goods nor sell any services. They are strictly cost centers and not revenue centers. All revenue is derived from taxation; it is not earned. We pay income tax when we earn money, sales tax when we spend it, real estate tax on our property, and inheritance tax when our relatives leave any money not otherwise spent or taxed. We also pay road, tunnel and bridge tolls, parking tickets, and other fees to government authorities that are also taxes under different titles such as use fees or penalty fees. Governmental agencies at all levels are up against a brick wall as to how to continue to generate revenues from a population suffering an economic catastrophic decline. Hence they bounce upon goodness and holiness. "Tobacco is bad for you, so let's tax it". Our good health is not the concern, but, rather the wave of the punishment finger for our transgression is a ruse to charge a tax. Gasoline tax is another issue out of control. In New York State we pay enormous per gallon tax for fuel which is 10% ethanol. We pay registration fees for the right to drive on public roads and we pump money into parking meters so that we may have the opportunity to leave our car on a street in order to go into a shop and spend money that is taxed again. If we dally for an extra minute or two, we get a summons and hence another tax. It is a game of gotcha. Revenue is raised from the backs of those who work. Unfortunately, now, many backs are broken and more than just a few are not working.

Cellaring is a code word for hoarding and with respect to tobacco that is not a sustainable solution. Unreasonable taxation on tobacco will lead to unreasonable taxation on every other taxable item and the end result that we are beginning to witness is a failed system. It is a dimwit band-aid on a spreading systemic infection. Our congressional representatives need to become realistic, about their powers of taxation and the backlash that they will create for idiot bills that they float when their constituents are beyond their fiscal breaking points.

 

[ZeroContent]

Maybe it'll become a black market item like moonshine and pot.

 

[puros_bran]

Pay your share and quit bitching.

 

[MisterE]

I can't say that the money is not going to a good cause. I think any revenue destined to help people is a good idea.

I think who they're targeting to do the helping smacks of "kick 'em when they're down", even when the cause is worthy. I'd say the bill is pretty much a shoe-in as it comes down to: "People like and want to help disabled folk, and everyone hates smokers, so let's TAX their asses". Easy way to get support and revenue for your cause that way. To argue against it will be met with "so you don't want to help disabled people then? See?! I told you smokers are assholes, they DESERVE to be taxed for that selfish attitude!!!"

A more modest tax on fast food, say, would generate ever greater total income. The idea is to simply target a sector which is easy to gather public support against and pair it with a humanitarian cause at which nobody will dare oppose. Pretty smart actually.

Kind of a no-win situation as far as I can see.

As for cellaring or hoarding, it just makes economic sense in the light of coming legislation. I do the best I can in that regard but my income bracket doesn't allow me to put away 100 lbs per year. Not of quality stuff anyway. I'll continue to build mine, and just hope it doesn't get to the point where cost prevent me from continuing with my hobby.

 

[puros_bran]

So a fast food sin tax is better?

Remember the Dem's ' change you can trust' ?
Remember the Rep's ' back to the constitution' ?

We've got and are still getting exactly what we wanted.

 

[MisterE]

So a fast food sin tax is better?

Remember the Dem's ' change you can trust' ?
Remember the Rep's ' back to the constitution' ?

We've got and are still getting exactly what we wanted.

Well perhaps in keeping with the idea of levying a smaller tax over a greater area for greater income, yes. Ain't going to happen because you can argue that food is a necessity whereas tobacco is a choice. Doesn't matter that fast food is equally unhealthy (IMHO), it's simply a more defensable position politically. They're playing to win is all. You can't blame them.

If you're saying the people who got us to this point were those who voted in the current lot of politicians, I can't argue with you there....

 

[NeroWolfe]

Calculate the tobacco needed at your rate of smoking for the rest of your life, double it, make your list, check it twice, and start ordering when you can. We probably have a couple of years before we are royally screwed!!!!

 

[nosenhoj]

sand18f;

I FEEL YOU


"There's a story behind rvery bowl"

 

[forsooth]

Taxes on tobacco and other "choices" don't go to the so-called intended target. The collected taxes become a SLUSH FUND to be doled out by politicians, primarily as a power perk. Proof? Look at the humongous tobacco settlement of a few years ago as well as the largess of tobacco taxes already in place. Are they going to their "intended targets?" No. H, No!

IMHO, we have to fight this as an overarching resistance to ANY new taxes. Pipe smokers alone, even if united with one voice, can do very little, especially in one little segment of the tax code. We must vote (as puros_bran indicates) for those who are closest to the Constitution.

I say NO NEW TAXES and decrease the size and scope of the federal govt. per "original intent" of the Founding Fathers.

In my state, a new provision was instituted in the state tax code. Starting next April, if you WANT to pay state tax over and above what is required, you are welcomed to do so using your tax form. The folks who are calling for OTHERS to pay more taxes can put their dollars where their mouth is. (You know they won't!)

(Sorry, I'm currently being treated for "aggravated rant syndrome," and the current inhabitants in Washington aren't helping any!)

 

[gandalfpc]

closest to the Constitution.

I say NO NEW TAXES and decrease the size and scope of the federal govt. per "original intent" of the Founding Fathers.

The original intent of the founding fathers was to cover their own asses. It was a matter of letting land owning white men to be free of the king.

Those men then quickly took the place of that king and proffered their own taxes.

Why?

Because as time went on they came to terms with the need for them.

If you desire to live in a world where your family is fine and the giant steel bars around your house keep you safe from the suffering masses - then reduce gov't down to the size where there is no support for those who aren't rich.

No minimum wage, no child labor laws, no need for a hospital to help you - no roads or bridges.

I didn't build this country - you didn't build this country - and as much as you don't like to admit it - taxes built this country.

PB said it all - Pay your share and stop muttering about it - because complaining about how we hate to pay taxes is like complaining to the wife about washing the dishes. Someone has to do it - or they just pile up.

We all want to make the Gov't better - and we all underestimate the difficulty and importance of the job.

We also hire lots of idiots to run things - our fault entirely...

Don't like paying high property tax? Well, move out of that nice town you live in and move out to the sticks, where there are no services and taxes are under 100 bucks a year... Oh, you like that town... Well, fresh out of ideas then...

The founding fathers would sh*t themselves if they were responsible for running the country now - times have changed, industrialization has arrived, cities have risen. Everyone doesn't just go into their backyard to shoot dinner anymore.

Why stick with the founding fathers? Why not go back to the stone-age, when men were truly free...

 

[forsooth]

gandalfpc -- Thanks for the reply and your general perspective. Sounds like our completed presidential ballots in November, 2012, will not look at all alike! That's what this great country is still all about!

 

[Dutch]

My guess is pipe tobacco and cigars enjoyed moderately will never have the same impact on your body as fast food...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Size_Me

My doctor asked me a couple years ago to cut out all fast food and replace with fruits and vegetables, lean meats, and eggs. I have much more energy and still smoke 1 cigar and 2 bowls of pipe tobacco daily.

You will play hell getting fast food taxed because too many people will have to make a personal sacrifice. Ditto tenfold on a fat tax.

 

[Guy]

I hate to say it but if any additional taxes are levied against tobacco it will be time for me to quit smoking. Living in NYC you can get a summons and ripped off for smoking. The regrettable thing is I see so many NYC poor forking over $15 for a pack of cigarettes.

 

[CarterHallJunkie]

Living in NYC you can get a summons and ripped off for smoking.

Really? Do you mean that if you smoke in public - anywhere - this could happen?

 

[Guy]

Living in NYC you can get a summons and ripped off for smoking.

Really? Do you mean that if you smoke in public - anywhere - this could happen?

Yes all public parks and in many public spaces. I have been “at home only pipe smoker” since the early 90’s.

 

[CarterHallJunkie]

Yes all public parks and in many public spaces. I have been “at home only pipe smoker” since the early 90’s.

Wow - I was in NYC last year - smoking away (ciggs - before I returned to the pipe)

Who knew?

I feel for you brother.

 

[Krusty]

Curiouser and...

Cellaring/Hoarding is called out as a head-in-the-sand reaction that will do good.

Opinions along the lines of put-up-or-shut-up, country built on taxes so pay your fair share etc, pass somewhat unscathed so far.

Fascinating behaviors.

 

[puros_bran]

I was mostly being jaded against the entire system. The futility of bitching about it. The idiocy of thinking any politician or political party will save us (ever heard of a rapist stopping mid stroke and having a change of heart? )

It's really not the amount we pay, it's what we get in return. As crazy as it sounds I'd pay double what I do now if we had a lean mean extremely efficient government.
Don't kid yourself, the majority of highway funds goes into paperwork and kick backs. Same with the 'tobacco money' Same with all of it.
He'll we blow more on crooked elections than most nations GDP.
We collect more in taxes than any other nation in the world and we are broke?? How??

A soldier gets a grand a month bit the underwear he has on cost $700?
We have the safest commercial vehicle operations over the past decade in recorded history and they create a new administration to create stricter laws with more severe punishment?
We spend more administrating the 'welfare system' than we do handing it out to those eligible ? Wtf is that??

I'm not opposed to taxation spent in a common sense frugle manner. I'm also wise enough to know that's not going to happen and that raising your blood pressure bitching about it on a pipe forum doesn't correct anything.

Plus you have to admit. Tobacco tax is a voluntary tax, you don't have to purchase it. I'm not saying it's good, I'm not saying it is ok, I'm saying it's reality.

As for the 'old white guy' comment. It was in many ways a better system. Those that had nothing to lose didn't get a vote, those that had a stake did.
Democracy really is two wolfs and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
As long as people have financial incentive to play class warfare (which is just kore bs politics in many ways) this won't stop.
It's not the unemployeds fault, it's not the rich guys fault, it's not the middle class fault. It is ALL OF OUR fault for allowing tyrants, crooks, scoundrels, and cur dogs to have power over us. Until we as a people (not a sub class, or a special interest) get rid of the cancer bitching about the pain is pointless.

 

[forsooth]

Well, since this thread started out about Harkins' proposed new federal tax, this is my "summing up.."

1. "Pipe Smokers United Against Federal Tobacco Taxes" (or whatever) is not going to make anything happen, except perhaps a little awareness (which is important).

2. There are enough voters to put national figures (House and Senate) who are absolutely opposed to ANY new federal taxes. We hear "Washington doesn't have a tax problem -- Washington has a spending problem" all the time. It's so true!

3. There are enough voters to put someone in 1600 Penn. Avenue who is against any new Federal taxes AT ALL. The last time I checked, AT ALL includes tobacco.

My greatest concern is that enough folks develop the "well, there's really nothing we can do..." attitude and we become the failed welfare state of Great Britain...or Italy...or Spain...or Greece...

 

[sand18f]

I don't care if everyone in the entire world quits smoking. I will continue to enjoy my pipe, if for no other reason than you tell me that I can't.