Charatan 109 Special Bulldog

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I love learning tidbits about the factories and sometimes, just plain old "lore". I had read that grade chart (and saved a PDF copy) and assumed it was gospel. This one gets delivered tomorrow, and I'm hoping it isn't lopsided! The wife said my daughters wanted to give me something for Christmas together, I mistakenly suggested this pipe, so now I won't see it until the 25th....
 
Here's the only reference I can find of the so-called apprentice pipes...

Ivy Ryan":y983n4wc said:
Sandblasted pipes stamped Charatan's Make over London England and a number are one version of the famous "Rough" grade. These were apprentice pipes that didn't come out well enough to be graded but were still eminently smokable. To save the wood and give the less-well-off a quality smoke, Charatan would first hand rusticate the pipe gently, then sandblast it. (Due to Dunhill's patent, they couldn't simply blast the pipe, and the rustication made for a very different blast.) Other Roughs will turn up with any of the other markings mentioned previously, but they were still roughed because the grain was pitted or severely marred. For example, I have an Extra Large Made by Hand that has a bad flaw up the side; otherwise, it is a great Oom Paul shape. So it was roughed and stemmed by an apprentice and sold much cheaper than it would have gone as a Special or higher grade. Roughs were the absolute bottom of the old (pre-Dunhill) Charatan line.
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http://pipedia.org/wiki/Memories_of_Charatan_Pipes_and_Notes_on_their_Dating

I went though some old threads looking for the article I was thinking of. It had a great explanation of how the grading and apprentice system worked at the Charatan shop. Hopefully it'll turn up.
 
My other 109 was a "Rough" grade, it now belongs to herbindave.  If the new one smokes half as good as this one, I'll be tickled.

 
MisterE":mf29bxbx said:
Here's the only reference I can find of the so-called apprentice pipes...

Ivy Ryan":mf29bxbx said:
Sandblasted pipes stamped Charatan's Make over London England and a number are one version of the famous "Rough" grade. These were apprentice pipes that didn't come out well enough to be graded but were still eminently smokable.
Click to expand...
http://pipedia.org/wiki/Memories_of_Charatan_Pipes_and_Notes_on_their_Dating

I went though some old threads looking for the article I was thinking of. It had a great explanation of how the grading and apprentice system worked at the Charatan shop. Hopefully it'll turn up.
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@Mr. E and Al,
I have to say that my statement calling apprentice pipes BS is not BS after all!!! I stand corrected. LOL
And thanks for the replies about this guys.

But the quote above from pipedia.org has been retracted because many of Ivy Ryan's statements concerning Charatan Pipes have been found to be unsubstantiated and false. The idea of apprentice made pipes is just hearsay but makes very much sense and many think that is why some lower grade Charatan pipes (Belvedere, some Freehand relief sandblasted pipes, Specials) are found to be less symmetrical or oddly shaped. After discussing this with some of the more expert Charatan collectors recently they agree that this is how apprenticeship pipe makers worked their way up the ladder making some of the lower grade pipes eventually becoming a full fledged pipe maker graduating to the High Grade Executives, Supremes, etc.  So now I am going on a hunt to see how many apprentice made pipes I can find!!! Kidding of course.

And Al, if that Bent Bulldog Charatan you bought is an apprentice made pipe it certainly is a beauty nonetheless.  :D
 
I'd read the same about the Ivy Ryan article and wasn't sure how much it could be trusted. But, it does make sense.
The wife is holding this one until Christmas Day, so I'll know how it smokes in one week.
 
I bought my first Charatan, a Belvedere Banker back in '71 and I never saw any pipes marked "Rough" series wise back then. The last Charatan I bought was in '79 a Special Extra Large Pot and this shape chart and pricing /series guide was what I always knew was what Charatan made and these retail prices remained pretty consistent through the '70s. The highest series I have are two Executives and about 6 Reliefs in various styles.

http://www.tecon-gmbh.de/info_pages.php?pages_id=121%3FosCsid%3D093163f4f79f9136b21700ce1bdf1f80&language=en&osCsid=28818b9eab896a9fc57621f11a90566a
 
My pipe is not marked "Rough", but apparently ungraded or unstamped pipes were known as "Rough" pipes.
If my new one doesn't smoke as well as that Rough, I may be coming after Dave! <g>
 
riff raff":kcrp5234 said:
My pipe is not marked "Rough", but apparently ungraded or unstamped pipes were known as "Rough" pipes.  
If my new one doesn't smoke as well as that Rough, I may be coming after Dave! <g>
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I have two Relief Grains, one a tanshell finish, and the other a dark brown shell finish which are unstamped series wise, but were sold as I was told as the lesser priced "Relief Grain" back when I bought them. I don't think I paid much over $40.00 apiece for them back then. I've always heard the blasted series of pipes refered to as "Relief Grains", this is the first reference to a "Rough" series I've heard of ! :shock: 
 
That could be one of the reasons why the Ivy Ryan article is considered questionable by some? I've never heard the tern "Rough" used either. Maybe it was just a term they used inside the factory and they labeled them Relief Grain for sale?

Who knows. Lore, lore, lore....
 
The term "rough" is just something used to describe an otherwise "apprentice pipe". Another term that I find derogatory. LOL
You will never see a Charatan marked/stamped "rough" IMO.
I've seen literally thousands of Charatan pipes in my 30+ years of collecting and never encountered such a stamping.
Although I have seem some heavily smoked pipes that I would consider rough.  :lol!: 
 
Whatever one wants to call this nice Charatan 109 Blast, I call it a dandy SMOKER!
 
You lucked out on that Charatan, Dave -- no doubt an excellent smoker  :) 
 
herbinedave":qurk09xr said:
Whatever one wants to call this nice Charatan 109 Blast, I call it a dandy SMOKER!
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I knew you'd be pleased, I was just kidding about coming after you! <g>
 
riff raff":0ugpma4q said:
herbinedave":0ugpma4q said:
Whatever one wants to call this nice Charatan 109 Blast, I call it a dandy SMOKER!
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I knew you'd be pleased, I was just kidding about coming after you!  <g>
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I know that Al!!! :) 
 
Dave's 109 is safe!  I opened this up on Christmas morning and smoked it for the first time today. As promised by the seller, it needed cleaned but was in overall excellent condition. The bowl is slightly out of round, near the shank, but that would the only complaint. I tuned the stem up a little as it was a little rough. I'd rather get a pipe that requires this bit of work than to have someone damage it.

It passes a thick cleaner easily and smoked quite well. I love the rubber in older Charatan stems. It is stamped a 2109, not a 109 as I have in the title.




 
riff raff":c3ipjz0k said:
Dave's 109 is safe!  I opened this up on Christmas morning and smoked it for the first time today. As promised by the seller, it needed cleaned but was in overall excellent condition. The bowl is slightly out of round, near the shank, but that would the only complaint. I tuned the stem up a little as it was a little rough. I'd rather get a pipe that requires this bit of work than to have someone damage it.

It passes a thick cleaner easily and smoked quite well. I love the rubber in older Charatan stems. It is stamped a 2109, not a 109 as I have in the title.





Glad all worked out for you Al!!  :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers: 
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The first number in Charatan style numbers indicates its bowl size. A number 2 for them would have been a grp 3 or 4 in the equivalent Dunhill style and back in the 70's even Charatan called a bent bulldog a Rhodesian!! I have a 3109 bent "Rhodsian" in both the dark brown and black Relief Grain ( rough as is the currently used description though never used by Charatan  :twisted: )  as well as a 2109 in a Distinction grade. You got one DAMN FINE Charatan if it smokes as good as mine !! Way ta go   :cheers:
 
That is interesting Monblac. I didn't know the significance of the 2 in the first digit of the shape number.
 
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