Does Dunhill EMP lose its flavor or is it me?

[Nonsailor]

I've been enjoying a tin of Dunhill Early Morning Pipe since November when I began smoking the pipe. It has an unique dry quality to it and a sharp, pine-like, almost Frankincense aroma. Of late, I've been unable to detect those flavors when I smoke it. Does EMP lose some of these flavors over a few months? I've kept most of it in the tin, but put some in a mason jar. Both--yes, I broke into the jar--suffer from this loss of those particular bright and dry flavors, taken separately or together (mixing tin and jar contents).

Is EMP the sort of tobacco that needs its own dedicated pipe? The drop in the unique flavors has coincided with the arrival of several English / Balkan / Latakia mixtures into my rotation. As EMP is (in my mind, at least) a mild English, it sometimes shares time with pipes that smoke stronger tasting blends such as Meridian and 965. If EMP is being dulled by ghosts of Meridian (or made differently complex), I'd accept that, but it doesn't seem to tell the whole story. A couple of mornings ago I smoked some in a new legend corncob and found EMP to have a nice flavor, but none of the aforementioned qualities that made it distinct to my palate. I've often smoked EMP in another corncob with fantastic results, so I don't think it's the pipe.

Smoking stronger English style blends seems to be the biggest change in the past month. Looking back over my notes, I've smoked more 965, Meridian, and Magnum Opus than any other blends. Has the development of my palate in these complex, latakia blends somehow made EMP seem less incense-like in its flavor? (Seems unlikely, but I thought I'd throw the idea out there.)

Finally, I read here (http://pipes.priss.org/dunhill.php#early) in a review of EMP: "The variety of orientals create a somewhat complex flavour, but tinning and aging seems to dull the contrasts between the various ingredients." As this writer's reviews seem well-thought out, the mention of "dull" flavors over time seems noteworthy.

Thanks for your patience on my n00b questions, brothers. Any insights, experiences, or suggestions you have would be appreciated.

 

[sam a]

Has the development of my palate in these complex, latakia blends somehow made EMP seem less incense-like in its flavor?

that is something i have experienced in the past, with pipe tobacco, cigars, cigarettes, coffee, food, ect. although i am sure there are plenty of factors that could be contributing, including all the ones you mentioned. this was the first thing i thought of when i was reading your post. the palate develops and tastes change.

 

[monbla256]

EMP has not changed, YOU have, more correctly, your tongue/taste functions. EMP never was a STRONG/FULL tobacco either the older Murray version nor that as blended today by others. ( I've smoked both and the new guys have gotten this one right, 965 is another question ) It was never meant to be as full tasting a blend as the heavy Latakia blends you state you are now smoking, in fact i don't think it has any Latakia in it so as you have adjusted to this type of smoke anything without will feel VASTLY different to your palate. I also smoke a full English style mixture as my daily smoke, but NOT a whole lot of different types, rather I vary my tobacco blends into the various all Virginia blends to keep my tongue and palate receptive to MORE than just Latakia. From my short time here it seems that there is a group swing to find the Latakia "bombs" as THE blends to smoke! Many of these are (IMHO) really "one trick ponies" as far as blends go, not having near as much nuances of flavors in the blends as many of the older "English" blends did, and some still do! Remember, 30/40 years ago, English blenders could NOT use artificial flavorings or additives in their tobacco so developed their blends far differently than the Continental and US blenders which gave their blends the distinctive taste and aroma.
Try backing off from some of the Lat heavy blends, and give some more time to some others with more nuanced tobacco's and you might find a difference and develop a more receptive palate

 

[Natch]

Interesting you note this loss of flavor. Back in November of 1999, in preparation for "the end of the world" or whatever might happen with the new millennium, I jarred up several of my favorite blends, including a pound of Dunhill 965. Well, the Rattray's OG and Marlin Flake are now fantastic, but the 965 seems quite flat and actually seems to have less taste in the two years I've been testing it. As anything from the former Murrys production would equally old, I can't compare the two, but all in all it seems to have lost a lot of flavor in the 10+ years of aging. But perhaps my tastes have changed?

Natch

 

[monbla256]

Interesting you note this loss of flavor. Back in November of 1999, in preparation for "the end of the world" or whatever might happen with the new millennium, I jarred up several of my favorite blends, including a pound of Dunhill 965. Well, the Rattray's OG and Marlin Flake are now fantastic, but the 965 seems quite flat and actually seems to have less taste in the two years I've been testing it. As anything from the former Murrys production would equally old, I can't compare the two, but all in all it seems to have lost a lot of flavor in the 10+ years of aging. But perhaps my tastes have changed?

Natch

I was fortunate to buy up a friends shop's stock of tinned 965 back in '89 when he was going out of business along with all his Nightcap and Sobranie759. I smoked up alot of it until I went to cigars back in the '90s and just put the remaining tins in a box in my closet and they have been there till this past year. I've now opened and smoked two tins and have to say it is a FAR BETTER blend now! Much more subtle nuances of flavors and burning characteristics from as I remember it having back when I smoked it all the time as my daily blend. I remember also when 965 became available as a "bulk" non tinned blend and I bought some and put it in a jar to "age". It was NOT the same as the tinned version, not the same burn manner, it was wetter, nor richness of aroma nor taste. I went back to the tinned version till I stopped pipe smoking and went to cigars. I have tried the new 965 and it is a good blend just is not as I recall it tasting and smoking, but then I'm working from a memory bank OVER 20 years ago!!

 

[Kyle Weiss]

EMP has not changed, YOU have, more correctly, your tongue/taste functions. EMP never was a STRONG/FULL tobacco either

My thoughts exactly, before I could write them all down.

So you work out with 20 pound weights, and switch up to 40 pounders for a couple of weeks--"Didn't these 20 pounders used to be heavier?" :lol:

Now, there may be some merit to the aging of anything with stoved/Latakia tobacco, as I've heard, because even smoked foods loose their "oomph" over time, as there's obviously some chemical makeup (natural hydrocarbons and complex resins) that break down.

So it could be both in some instances, but likely your tongue just got used to the levels of Lat in stronger blends and EMP just couldn't keep up.

Personally, I love going through easy "curves" of smoking, going from a few days of VA, to a stronger VA, back down to a milder one, then over to EMP, then Squadron Leader, then Proper English, then back to SL... eventually the EMP seems "fuller" in a way. It's a really subtle tobacco and very versatile--but strong? Only if you haven't had a bowl in a week or two. :drunken: :drunken:

8)

 

[Rusty]

An interesting thread. I agree with the suspicion concerning aging and lack of flavour. I think that there must be something about some continental Euro blends that makes them less suitable for the cellar in particular. I've had a number of tins of mixes that had moderate age (about 5 years) and tasted more like hot air. I was quite surprised at the loss of flavour. They were not like that when they were new. So I wonder what they put on the tobaccos in Denmark & Germany.

There may also be a bit of tolerance to Latakia building but it's not just the Latakia. The mixes often tend to muddiness and can be flat with moderate age.

It's interesting to note that this hasn't been my experience with many of the older UK tobaccos and it's not my experience with the current American made tobaccos. The balance may shift with age but I've never experienced hot air over flavour from them.

Also let me add just a little dissenting nit about one of the cherished myths .... There never was a prohibition for non-tobacco flavourings in the UK. To believe otherwise is a myth. And if you think about flavoured things like Capstan Navy Cut, St. Bruno flake, many of the old Lake District tobaccos you should realize that there is something cockeyed about this myth.

Remember, 30/40 years ago, English blenders could NOT use artificial flavorings or additives in their tobacco so developed their blends far differently than the Continental and US blenders which gave their blends the distinctive taste and aroma.

From at least the 1880's until 1986 the Commissioner of HM Customs and Excise (note that this is both a tax relationship and regulatory relationship) applied the following rules from the law:

1) The use of flavourings in the manufacture of tobacco is restricted, except as otherwise permitted by the Commissioner of Customs and Excise.

2) Only one approved flavouring may be added to any tobacco, and the total amount of flavouring used must not exceed that laid down in the letter of approval.

3) All approved flavourings must, before use, be completely dissolved in spirit.

4) Before use, each flavouring (including natural essential oils in solution) must, in the condition in which is added to the tobacco during the course of manufacture, be specifically approved by the Commissioner.

Does that read like a prohibition? It is not a prohibition in any sense but a restriction that shouts "You must observe a consultative relationship with the Commissioner and get his approval". Beyond that anything that was approved by the commissioner was ok. One can still see the consultative and approving nature of that relationship in many of the documents (that involve the commissioner) on the Legacy tobacco document site. For example this one from 1962:

http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/sss27a99/pdf

British tobacco makers were experts in using sauces.

After 1986 they adopted a permitted additive list. It's here:
http://www.advisorybodies.doh.gov.uk/scoth/technicaladvisorygroup/additiveslist.pdf

 

[Carlos]

It's winter time. Often, for me, the humidity has changed enough with the seasonal change that some blends just go off. Put it away for another day and smoke something else. Try some different pipes. Seriously. It can be really bad around here in the early spring. And that's really the kind of weather we have been having lately.

 

[monbla256]

An interesting thread. I agree with the suspicion concerning aging and lack of flavour. I think that there must be something about some continental Euro blends that makes them less suitable for the cellar in particular. I've had a number of tins of mixes that had moderate age (about 5 years) and tasted more like hot air. I was quite surprised at the loss of flavour. They were not like that when they were new. So I wonder what they put on the tobaccos in Denmark & Germany.

There may also be a bit of tolerance to Latakia building but it's not just the Latakia. The mixes often tend to muddiness and can be flat with moderate age.

It's interesting to note that this hasn't been my experience with many of the older UK tobaccos and it's not my experience with the current American made tobaccos. The balance may shift with age but I've never experienced hot air over flavour from them.

Also let me add just a little dissenting nit about one of the cherished myths .... There never was a prohibition for non-tobacco flavourings in the UK. To believe otherwise is a myth. And if you think about flavoured things like Capstan Navy Cut, St. Bruno flake, many of the old Lake District tobaccos you should realize that there is something cockeyed about this myth.

Remember, 30/40 years ago, English blenders could NOT use artificial flavorings or additives in their tobacco so developed their blends far differently than the Continental and US blenders which gave their blends the distinctive taste and aroma.

From at least the 1880's until 1986 the Commissioner of HM Customs and Excise (note that this is both a tax relationship and regulatory relationship) applied the following rules from the law:

1) The use of flavourings in the manufacture of tobacco is restricted, except as otherwise permitted by the Commissioner of Customs and Excise.

2) Only one approved flavouring may be added to any tobacco, and the total amount of flavouring used must not exceed that laid down in the letter of approval.

3) All approved flavourings must, before use, be completely dissolved in spirit.

4) Before use, each flavouring (including natural essential oils in solution) must, in the condition in which is added to the tobacco during the course of manufacture, be specifically approved by the Commissioner.

Does that read like a prohibition? It is not a prohibition in any sense but a restriction that shouts "You must observe a consultative relationship with the Commissioner and get his approval". Beyond that anything that was approved by the commissioner was ok. One can still see the consultative and approving nature of that relationship in many of the documents (that involve the commissioner) on the Legacy tobacco document site. For example this one from 1962:

http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/sss27a99/pdf

British tobacco makers were experts in using sauces.

After 1986 they adopted a permitted additive list. It's here:
http://www.advisorybodies.doh.gov.uk/scoth/technicaladvisorygroup/additiveslist.pdf

Well ! From what you've shown, it makes one wonder just how much "Smoking" is REALLY done to all that vaunted Lat we all like !! Just show's that it's ALL a c*** ****t as far as what we get in a blend ! So much for over 40 years of trust in all this Sounds like the usual Buidness scam as we all have experienced for so long! OH WELL

 

[Anonymous]

Good latakia-containing mixtures, tinned or jarred, will soften and mellow over time, with their balances changing. GLP's written about this.

It has been my experience that a just-opened tin of aged tobacco will have a particular taste and aroma that, after 24 hours after it's opened, will change -- sometimes very noticeably. Then, after two or three weeks of having been re-introduced to air, it will focus and hit its stride.

It's probably not unrelated to letting wine "breathe" before drinking it.

FWIW

:face:

 

[Nonsailor]

Thanks to everyone for his replies. This thread has been quite the eye-opener about palate shifts. It seems that one should attend to how the tobacco tastes in the context of what else one is smoking.

So, it seems to be a bit of both a shift in what flavors I respond to and possibly the tobacco itself. What nags at me is why it seems to be EMP more than anything else. I have traced changes in my palate in response to different blends over time. As such, some tobaccos seem more appealing (Navy Cavendish), some stay the same (Prince Albert tastes like peanuts and cardboard, regardless), and others become less interesting (anything aromatic).

EMP is the only one where the flavor has dramatically changed. It's still mild--it's always been mild--it just kind of indistinct now. The only other tobacco that has shifted that significantly is another Dunhill blend 965 (Natch and monbla256, thanks for your insights). Yet, that blend improved dramatically over a short period of time, which seemed the result of alterations in how I prepared the tobacco and how my palate responded. That one was me, not 965.

Is a previously opened Dunhill tin sufficient for storage? Or, should it all go into a mason jar?

Kyle, thanks for the tip to vary the tobaccos a bit? I'm looking at the unopened tin of Marlin Flake from 2006 that arrived this week. Time to meet Virginia?

 

[Nonsailor]

Good latakia-containing mixtures, tinned or jarred, will soften and mellow over time, with their balances changing. GLP's written about this.

It has been my experience that a just-opened tin of aged tobacco will have a particular taste and aroma that, after 24 hours after it's opened, will change -- sometimes very noticeably. Then, after two or three weeks of having been re-introduced to air, it will focus and hit its stride.

It's probably not unrelated to letting wine "breathe" before drinking it.

FWIW

:face:

How odd. Are there any particular tobaccos you'd mention that have changed so significantly?

 

[Kyle Weiss]

Kyle, thanks for the tip to vary the tobaccos a bit? I'm looking at the unopened tin of Marlin Flake from 2006 that arrived this week. Time to meet Virginia?

Sure! Variety is the spice of life, and whimsy is its shaker. :cheers: EMP is also a favorite of mine, and it has this weird habit of hitting me differently at times. I wondered what that was all about, too.

It's always time for Virginias, in my opinion! 8) Interestingly, if you go from a week or two with VAs to EMP, the EMP will seem like a monster, but from a really strong Lat blend back to EMP, it's a sleeping puppy. I find I like it best after a day I've been active with work, I have a pleasant adult beverage and just before I'm making dinner. The mellower flavor but still substantial body and medium nicotine never seems to disappoint.

On the side-band, Yak's mention of letting a tobacco breathe has HUGE merit. Even new tins shouldn't be sealed up quickly and "preserved" as they're being used, especially when just opened. I used to so this, thinking I was "saving" something good, then I found I hastily forgot to completely seal a tin and came back a day later. The tobacco was a tad drier, and smelled WONDERFUL compared to how I treated it before, and smoked even better. After that, I kept it sealed, like hitting the "pause" button when I got to a good spot with it "breathing," and I challenge myself to see how other tins/jars will benefit from a little fresh air. 8)

 

[gandalfpc]

Take note that I live 1 mile above sea level, so you may not be suffering the same conditions, but tins such as the Dunhill coin release screw top - and more to the point ALL tins that don't have pull tabs and count on a vacuum seal - all of them leak.

They keep a seal well enough, but they release the aroma of tobacco, and that aroma is made up of vital oils and chemicals that give aroma and flavor. Atmospheric pressure changes cause a type of breathing to occur in imperfectly (non hermetic) containes - which could be the cause, or perhaps the rubber seal allows the permeation of the esters...

In any case, tins stoed in an igloo cooler for several days to a week will allow a strong aroma of tobacco to develop, which is how much wonderful essence is escaping each day.

If your storage cabinet smells of tobacco when opened you have leaks in tins or jars...

I seal everything with paraffin wax to prevent this, and wonder if I might find my EMP to hold its flavor better after 5 or 10 years...

I'll get back to you in 4 to 9 years

 

[monbla256]

Thanks to everyone for his replies. This thread has been quite the eye-opener about palate shifts. It seems that one should attend to how the tobacco tastes in the context of what else one is smoking.

So, it seems to be a bit of both a shift in what flavors I respond to and possibly the tobacco itself. What nags at me is why it seems to be EMP more than anything else. I have traced changes in my palate in response to different blends over time. As such, some tobaccos seem more appealing (Navy Cavendish), some stay the same (Prince Albert tastes like peanuts and cardboard, regardless), and others become less interesting (anything aromatic).

EMP is the only one where the flavor has dramatically changed. It's still mild--it's always been mild--it just kind of indistinct now. The only other tobacco that has shifted that significantly is another Dunhill blend 965 (Natch and monbla256, thanks for your insights). Yet, that blend improved dramatically over a short period of time, which seemed the result of alterations in how I prepared the tobacco and how my palate responded. That one was me, not 965.

Is a previously opened Dunhill tin sufficient for storage? Or, should it all go into a mason jar?

Kyle, thanks for the tip to vary the tobaccos a bit? I'm looking at the unopened tin of Marlin Flake from 2006 that arrived this week. Time to meet Virginia?

As far as how "tinned" tobacco keeps, I usually only vary the # of blends I'm smoking to 3, or at the most 4 blends at a time and other than my "daily" bac, which I put in a well sealing ceramic humidor I've had for years now, (it will hold 200gs comfortably and I usually put maybe 150gs at a time in it) the rest I smoke out of the tins they come in till they are smoked up and I open another tin. The rest of my tobaccos i keep on some shelves in a bedroom closet seals un-broken till i get 'em out to smoke. Been doing this for almost 40 years now and it has worked for me I'm not really very "particular" in my methods, as compared to some folks, but most tobaccos I smoke seem to work out for me this way. KISS it