Hopefully History will not repeat itself 24 years later.

[Simple Man]

...

 

[mike_68]

IMHO our problems are and continue to be that our politicians play both sides(yes, even the sainted Mr. Reagan) by saying one thing to the world but doing something different behind closed doors...and our soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen pay the ultimate price...

But what does it matter to them? As long as the right people are making tons of money all is well....

So what's the solution? Tear down the existing government and put a whole new set of liars and pickpockets up there? It's the nature of the beast, give men power, wealth and influence and they will run a mock with it. This includes socialist, communist, democratic, theocratic and any other form of government. Government makes the deals, the citizens pay the bills...

When you elect ANYONE you create a ruling class...there isn't supposed to be a ruling class. And I don't know if world domination is any different if it's about money then if it's about religion, is it?

I'm not going to comment anymore as I don't want to create any bad blood. I just feel we've allowed the elected officials far too much leway for far too long. And I DON'T think it's JUST the politicians - the world banks are in control of almost everything that happens anyway..IMHO...

 

[Simple Man]

...

 

[Anonymous]

I'm telling you, this would go NOWHERE!

Maybe so. But we'd cover a lot of interesting ground getting there, and get closer to a rapproachment.

First off, some preliminaries.

For one thing, your notion of what the Crusades were "about," while universally believed, is a religious cartoon. In point of actual fact, the first crusaders ignored Jerusalem and "the Holy Land" entirely : they headed directly to Constantinople -- where they immediately started murdering other Christians. Although presented as the goal of the crusades, Jerusalem and "the Holy Land" were a late afterthought, secondary to places of actual importance, like Aleppo. The Crusades were entirely about control of the maritime trade from the Silk Route to the West. As was, for that matter, Mohammed's seizure of Mecca, although less entirely. By controlling a major commercial chokepoint along the caravan route, he was able to dictate terms to the commerce in an immense territory depending on it.

Secondly, you (and nearly everybody) writing on the Levant are projecting a uniquely Late, Western pattern (the State as a natural religious and cultural monolith) back into history in an area where (other than by accident, as in most of Arabia) there has never been a political or religious reality corresponding to it since at least the collapse of the Assyrian Empire in 622 BC.

I've been trying since this morning to condense this into as few words as possible, and it's very tough to do, because you need to be familiar with a lot of background information. State and Religion have been parallel, independent realities in the Levant from time out of mind. Prime example : Judaism -- existing everywhere, exercising overt political power nowhere. And with the longest history of peaceful co-existence with other people around it anywhere in the world. By current reckoning, nearly 2,000 years of it. Constantinople, for an easy example, has been a metropolis of diverse religions since it was built : of Khazar Ashkenazim, Levantine Sephardim, Nestorian Christians, Arian Christians, Orthodox Christians, Coptic Christians and Islamic peoples, Manachaeans, Mandaeans and too many other traditions to recount have come, gone and merged there, troubling no one with their differences but their own respective religious communities.

The conquest of the Levant by Islam was not, by and large, at the point of a bloody sword, as portrayed by the forces here in the business of turning actual history into a comic book. Rather, the acceptance of Islamic law as the dominant paradigm there was much less a take-over by an alien ideology than the conquest and supplanting of Christianity has been here (where Easter -- the holiday central to Christianity -- has been quietly replaced by "Martin Luther King Day," Christmas creches banned from public places, and school children's choirs are forbidden to sing Christmas Carols. THAT, my friend, is an example of conquest by an alien ideology). In the Middle East, Nationality and Religion go side-by-side -- not in lockstep. There, so long as they are left unmolested to follow their own ways, the quarrels of the kings and dynasties that rule them have never provoked much popular enthusiasm and change, when it does come, is almost by the default of the previous regime.

When people point to the Levant and claim that "these people have been fighting each other for thousands of years," I suspect they are making it up as they go along, using their own history as the pattern they assume others follow as well. Here, that the Roman Catholics in France massachred the French Protestants, men women and children alike in the Saint Bartholomew's Day Massacre, and that the Cromwellian English returned the favor in Ireland is just the record of what people do to each other when they regard themselves as religious Nationalities. WHICH IS EXACTLY THE PATTERN THE CIA, THE MOSSAD, GEORGE SOROS & Co., and the rest of the social engineers at work behind the scenes are busy imposing on the region, so that it will behave in the "Let's You and Him Fight" manner it never has before, as they accuse it of doing.

If you told an Afghani that since you are an American, this fact determines your loyalties and beliefs, he would regard you, privately, as feebleminded. On his side, the mere fact that he is an Afghani elicits a highly nuanced constellation of values that runs something like this : My tribe against the other tribes ; my clan against our tribe, my cousins and I against our clan, my brothers and I against our cousins, and me against my brothers. In a context such as this, it is perfectly possible for an Persian Iranian to be supportive of Arabic Iraq because both are Islamic while wondering in his newspaper why the Creator ever bothered to make Arabs at all when he already had pigs and dogs.

I'm not doing the job of this it deserves, and I appologise for that.

If you do nothing else, read this :
http://www.richardhoskins.com/bkbegi.htm
and get the book if came from.

And if it's of greater interest, get The Might of the West by W. Lawrence Brown. It's probably out of print but Advanced Book Exchange will probably find you a copy of it fairly inexpensively.

:face:

 

[alfredo_buscatti]

Yak, your last post is one of the best I've read. It is full of facts and continuously well-argued and doesn't suddenly diverge from such a presentation into other less well-supported avenues.

 

[J Soshae]

I followed your link to Richard Hoskins.

I consider myself a follower of Jesus Christ and not of men.

The writings of Richard Hoskins stands in opposition to everything my Messiah gave his life for.

 

[Puff Daddy]

Organized religion on a large scale is nothIng but Mans use of the fear of God to manipulate and hold power over his fellow Man. That kings, governments, and poitical movements should feed false information to reigious institutions in order to move them towrds their own ungodly motivated ends should be no big surprise. There is little if any Godliness to be found in government or religion, so relying on these for a shepherd to lead us to truth and peace if pure folly. Man, when attaining power, does not desire to share it with God. The only hope a man has is that somehow in his life he can gain enough character, wisdom and courage to lay himself humbly at the foot of the cross and find a relationship with the saviour. Our government is only a machine that we need to take hold of and manhandle until it becomes what it should be, a legal mechanism responsible to us, not the other way around, which is what they want you to think it should be. You are responsible to God and your government to you. Until the world manages this, chaos, corruption and death will continue.

Fighting over the details of human history, a history that has been bastardized and too long removed to ever truly know, is pointless. It won't change anything and only serves to detract from where our focus should lie.

 

[Anonymous]

The writings of Richard Hoskins stands in opposition to everything my Messiah gave his life for.

I can make no sense of this.

:face:

 

[Simple Man]

...

 

[Anonymous]

I do maintain that people should consider everything -- pro and con -- before coming to a conclusion.

But the spectacle of people relying on the ADL to tell them what beliefs make someone a "Christian" is truly priceless. The irony of it is beyond all power of description.

It almost makes me wonder whether, similarly, there are Jews who depend on the Vatican Press Office to tell them what good Jews believe. But I know better. That kind of imbicility is unique to mass-market "Christianity."

Notice this about Belief, friends : it is immune to facts, to common sense, to reason, and even to personal experience. As useful (and even necessary) as it is to maintain the moral compass without which people are two-legged animals, when it is misused, it disables the ability we are born with to comprehend our own experience and the world around us.

Misused belief is a five-year-old throwing a tantrum : "Santa Claus is going to being me a pony for Christmas. And anybody who says he's not is a stinky old poopy head and I hate him! My mind's made up."

This is why those in the business of manipulating people who don't realize they're being manipulated rely on it, almost exclusively. Above all, if facts (such as those I presented last time for you to consider) are invoked, they must be evaded, denied, minimized or rationalized-away into seeming insignificance. If facts are allowed at all, as in the ADL hit piece cited, they are so selectively chosen to create a particular emotional (NBB) impression that the result is, via selective omission, using the truth to tell a lie.

The only way to overcome that is, of course, to consider what the consensus-disturber is saying, with belief suspended, on a purely factual basis. That would require actually reading what he wrote. But this is the last thing that can be allowed.

History repeats itself.

The first time as tragedy.

After that as farce.

The Inquisition always enjoys burning heretics at the stake more than having to acknowledge that the earth revolves around the sun after all. That's why it keeps being what it is, and doing what it does.

By their fruits shall ye know them.

And enjoy your pony.

:face:

 

[Anonymous]

Before a merchant can go to a foreign land and buy and sell he must do two things. First, he must make arrangements with the priests of that land so that their god will not order his followers to kill him. Second, he must hire a king for a body guard...

Grasp that one simple fact and you have the key to the religious-economic conquest of the west.

:face:

 

[Airborne]

A plea . . .

The basis of this forum, the reason it exists at all, is captured in its name: Brothers of Briar. While we enjoy of host of unrelated topics that are interesting and positive, nowhere on this forum do I find a heading that reads: Politics or Religion. The closest, I suspect, is The Round Table. But a word of caution: while we all have our opinions about those two subjects, please think twice about expounding on them. The quickest way to undermine this perfectly good forum is to create ill will by arguing over issues in an attempt to change another’s view, or worse yet, to “enlighten” him with endless extended discourse. There are plenty of forums on the internet that are unambiguously for that purpose.

 

[Simple Man]

...

 

[alfredo_buscatti]

I don't agree. We are all adults. We know what the limits of decency are, and at least in this part of BoB, we know they must be observed.

I myself often read responses in these type of threads that are so beyond my belief system that I make a mental note not to cross swords with that poster, mostly because I know that if I do, the conflict will never end, that it's not worth it to try to penetrate that type of belief system. But that doesn't mean that anyone can't post, within the limits of decency.

I don't for a moment believe that such posting will have an adverse affect on BoB. It's contained in this forum and thread. It's not in the forums for tobacco and pipes. If the combatants have such emotion left over from this thread and carry it into other forums, they'll have to duke it out in pms.

 

[Mikem]

I was going to refrian from commenting on a bunch of the posts that followed my initial post, but I can't. I could care less why or who is in the wrong, or when and how the mess in the Middle East started. I have been all over the world in my career. Certain parts of the world hate the West and what it stands for, religiously, financially, and our way of life. There has been fighting over there for millenium, and I can care less why. It is the nature of man. Welcome to Earth, third rock from the sun. I just hope cooler heads prevail "ON BOTH SIDES" of this issue. I for one don't really want to lose a kid in this unneccesary conflict. I am sure there are a lot of Iranian parents who feel the same. Some of you guys missed the whole reason for this post and want to put blame on the U.S., the West, Muslims or who ever. Again I could care less who is pissing on who's Wheaties. I just hope cooler heads will prevail so no one gets shot up or worse. Shit its no wonder there is so much conflict in the world. Just look at some of the arguments presented here for the why and who is to blame. It is no wonder that this world is so screwed up. History is History :study: :scratch: , no matter what version you think is the gospel. Get over it and move on..........

 

[Airborne]

I don't agree. We are all adults. We know what the limits of decency are, and at least in this part of BoB, we know they must be observed.

I myself often read responses in these type of threads that are so beyond my belief system that I make a mental note not to cross swords with that poster, mostly because I know that if I do, the conflict will never end, that it's not worth it to try to penetrate that type of belief system. But that doesn't mean that anyone can't post, within the limits of decency.

I don't for a moment believe that such posting will have an adverse affect on BoB. It's contained in this forum and thread. It's not in the forums for tobacco and pipes. If the combatants have such emotion left over from this thread and carry it into other forums, they'll have to duke it out in pms.

I didn’t solicit your agreement. Actually, I don’t give a flying fuck whether you agree or disagree with me. My plea was to think twice before engaging in discussions concerning politics and religion because of the subsequent ill will it often causes. You don’t own this site. You’re a guest here. You’re in someone else's house. Act accordingly.

 

[alfredo_buscatti]

John I must say that I appreciate your tact. As regards me acting as if I owned BoB, I don't see that in my post; but I do see it in yours.

 

[Puff Daddy]

Actually, I don’t give a flying fuck whether you agree or disagree with me. My plea was to think twice before engaging in discussions concerning politics and religion because of the subsequent ill will it often causes. You don’t own this site. You’re a guest here. You’re in someone else's house. Act accordingly.

Wow, what an asshole you are! You preach about restraint out of respect and then proclaim to not give a flying fuck what another person thinks in the same breath. You put out a plea to cause no ill will and then drop a shitstorm of it because someone comes along and has a different view of what's going on.

You are the new guy here, and this is not Your house, so why don't You show a little respect and not hold forth on how things should go in a place that you had no hand in creating. If you'd been around here long enough enough or paid attention to what has always gone on here you'd notice that we engage in a lot of off topic discussions including politics and religion, and that we have the ability to discern between opposing opinions and dictatorial dogma. We don't need some shmuck coming in here telling us to put the baby shoes on and then dropping F bombs because he feels some delicate sensibilities have been offended.





And if you'd bother to read our rules you'd see that we don't allow your kind of language in the public areas, dickhead.

 

[puros_bran]

Hey Mike..
I hope your boy comes through all this unscathed.

I want to say this, and I don't mean it to sound cold if it does.

He joined knowing the risk just like the rest of us. That fact alone regardless of anything else makes him a Hero.
Jr joined the military in a time of war. Any of you bozo's arguing right or wrong think about the implications of that act?
He signed a blank check up to and including piling a lifetime of grief upon his mom and dad for what he believes is right and respectable. He joined thinking it would continue a way of life for us that allows us to sit in our homes, burning electricity sending our stupid arguements out over the ethernet while munching a sammich and sipping a beer. He didn't say "the Federal government is controlled by the banks" or "the Islamic dog must die" or any thing other than "This is my home, I must defend this."
Is he defending it? or Marching for Power hungry Bankers? It doesn't matter.. He believes he is defending us, the hundreds of thousands of kids that join every year, in time if war, just like he did believe they are defending us..

You guys are arguing over them like they don't matter. I don't care about the Rothschilds, I can't change that.. i don't care if Mr Islam is peaceful or tyranical, I can't change that either way. In this context I don't even care about the right or wrong of the situation, arguing on a pipe board is not going to change it...

I do care about those kids over there though. A man comes in here worrying about his son, and WE make the stupidest post in the history of the internet, myself first and foremost. Wish the man and his sone well, say a lil prayer or meditate or whatever you do for them, and move along.


(I put this in the rubber room to hide it, I'm moving it back.. let everyone see just how retarded we act.. it should change some of the stuffy supiriority bullshit that goes on)

 

[Anonymous]

There are a lot of sides to every issue. And pointing one out doesn't invalidate another one. Lots of things can be true about one and the same thing.

What makes me stop and think is WHY on earth we have the crazy idea that (presumably) grown, intelligent adults cannot discuss anything that touches on "politics" or "religion" ? Where did we get that idea from ?

I think it's an example of what psychologists call "learned helplessness."

And I also think (to the extent that anybody cares -- if there is one) that the automatic, knee-jerk insulting reactions when stuff like that does come up are a learned behavior too. People see it on television & hear it on the radio (and see it on the inter-nut) so often they figure that's "just how you respond" to some idea that annoys you.

I keep harping and harping on the way that the Belief Mode and Operant Conditioning (Behavior Modification/Social Engineering/Brainwashing) derail potential comprehension. But holy cow, guys, every time I turn around, there they are again -- big as life.

:face: