The "Ketchup" thing

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monbla256

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Being a long time McC 'bac smoker I'm continualy amazed at the insistence that their products have an aroma and taste of "ketchup" . My father's family were tobacco farmers up in N. Carolina back when I was a boy and I spent some summers up there and helped harvest and take to market their crops of Virgina Brightleaf and Red Virginia. I can remember the somewhat acidic aroma of the leaves we would get down from the tobacco barn when we would take them down and load up to go to market in Durham. The same acidic scent was found in the sale barns as we would follow the auctioneer as he sold our crop. I currently have three freinds who are chefs and are non-smokers so I thought I would try an experiment to see if my McC's 'bacs did have a "ketchup" scent. All three chefs have resteraunts with outside patios where foks who want to smoke can so I went to each one with an un-opened tin of Virgina Woods and Blackwood Flake and opened each while there and asked each one to give me their impressions of how the 'bacs smelled. Not a single one refered to "ketchup" as a scent they smelled. One said "... ummm, are all pipe tobacco's vinagery in aroma?" Another remerked on how "...sweet/sour" it smelled and the third staited that it was ".... sort of sour, does it tatste that way when you smoke it?". Not a singel reference to "ketchup" which surprised me.
I think it is proof of the concept of "the power of suggestion" which we all fall victim to in many things we encounter. Once you read/hear that "McClelland's tobaccos have a Ketchup aroma" you set it as a "fact" in your brain and eventually it beomes "so" for everyone else. Acidic yes, Ketchup, no. JMHO :p ( and I'm sure the same could be said of "old ladies soap") :p
 
Haha. That's awesome Monbla. I never wouldv'e thought of taking bac samples to a chef! :cheers:

I think it's really more a case of idividual perception. I'd agree it's more of a soury sort of scent, similar to vinnegar, but not exactly that either. Perhaps people's individual chemistry makes one of either extreme overwhelming? I'll always reach for a Lakeland before any McC offering personally.

What's interesting is that both Lakeland and McClelland scents ellicit such strong rections. For those who always seek to establish value judgements of better/worse than, it's an irresistable topic. :lol!:
 
MisterE":iovhp5zg said:
I think it's really more a case of idividual perception. I'd agree it's more of a soury sort of scent, similar to vinnegar, but not exactly that either.
My understanding is that the ketchup smell is the preservative they use which is, to a larger or smaller degree, vinegar.
 
I rather agree with the overall assessment of "vinegar". That's what I find as a primary smell for some MC tins when first opened. Not disagreeable, just unique to that brand. And certainly not noticeable when smoked.

Natch
 
...I tend to agree...I've smoked most all of McClelland's tobaccos starting back in in mid 1970's...and never would describe their tin note as bing a smell of Ketchup...Certainly a sour note in some of their tobaccos...just my experience :sunny:
 
And with vinegar being a dominant ingredient in ketchup, it's easy enough to see how the combination of vinegar with natural sugars from a vegetal product could create that connection for some.
 
If it was a Limburger or canned herring scent I would absolutely be opposed. :mrgreen:
 
Hereward":1zoff510 said:
If it was a Limburger or canned herring scent I would absolutely be opposed. :mrgreen:
So you're not a big fan of the Lakeland scent? 8) 8) 8)
 
Who gives a popcorn fart what smell people claim it has? It is what it is. Delicious.
 
gravel":15vbbh8y said:
Who gives a popcorn fart what smell people claim it has? It is what it is. Delicious.
UUUUUMMMMM Popcorn farts! :cheers: Almost as good as Catsup :twisted: BTW, I WHOLEHEARTILY AGREE with you :p
 
McClelland's VA's are just damn good, period.

Hotdogs? Hold the Catsup. :lol:
 
It's vinergery.. not katsoup.. but I'm with the bro above, it's easy to see how that scent would flavor ketchup ideas, or maybe even catsup..

Whats odd to me, with as big a part as nose plays into taste how come no one ever complains of tasting it?
 
puros_bran":f8minta4 said:
It's vinergery.. not katsoup.. but I'm with the bro above, it's easy to see how that scent would flavor ketchup ideas, or maybe even catsup..

Whats odd to me, with as big a part as nose plays into taste how come no one ever complains of tasting it?
Maybe the "power of suggestion" is what's at play ya think :twisted: I'm STILL trying to find it in my McC's 'bac :p
 
It's there old timer. I got it before I ever visited a forum.

Possible explanation: I seldom smell a horse anymore, but a lot of people smell it on me.
To short circuit the crackheads.. not horse Crap.. just horse smell in general.
 
Its unfortunate that so many people continually accuse McClelland of adding chemicals, vinegar, whatever to their tobacco that produce that acetic aroma when there is absolutely no evidence of that - not even hearsay that comes from supposed industry experts. I've never seen anything at all to back up this claim, but somehow it has reached the point of being common knowledge thanks to years and years of ignorant reviews on TR that never expire, and discussions on forums and elsewhere.

As many politicians understand well... if you say something enough times, and get other people to say it too, it becomes true (even if it isn't).

Are McClelland tobaccos distinctive and quite different from GLP/C&D and others - absolutely. Do the ones that include matured and/or stoved VA have an acetic aroma that is strong upon first opening tin? Totally, imo. But they take the time to do something with their product that few (if any) others do. Time is money, after all. If you prefer the tastes of something like C&D and its fresher, un-stoved leaf components that's cool - enjoy! But that isn't the only form of natural, additive-free tobacco.

So anyway, comments from a couple of people just to help the discussion:

Tad Gage, who reviews for Pipes and Tobaccos magazine (print) and has worked directly with McClelland on blends, posted this on another site a while back:

This [what people refer to as ketchupy/vinegary] is a direct result of the intense and intentional stoving process used for selected blends, but is by no means “characteristic” of McClelland blends. It is also a completely natural occurance caused by the stoving, aging and caking process, and something that frequently occurs with Virginia tobaccos over the course of many years of tin aging. It is not contrived by the use of flavorings or any artificial processes.

As anyone who does some cooking knows, heat and pressure have the ability to transform ingredients from one thing to something completely different. A tough and terrible pork shoulder roast, cooked slowly for hours, can transform into something totally soft and delectible. And think about Perique, which is basic Burley tobacco that under tremendous pressure and with sufficient aging, transforms into a completly different tobacco. Clearly, the same is true with Virginia leaf. It can range from bright flue-cured to something dark and unctuous that is quite different from the original product. My point is that the processing makes all the difference.
In one of his "Ask GLP" articles on PipesMagazine, Pease commented on this phenomenon as well:

H.R. writes: Many have commented on the "ketchup" odor of certain Virginia blends, the result of vinegar produced during fermentation. (I always noticed a pronounced "dill pickle" aroma in the old Sullivan Powell’s Gentleman’s Mixture.) Do tobacco processors and blenders use specifically chosen yeast, acetobacter or lactobacillus cultures to engender the results they want, or are they just letting nature take its course, as did the winemakers, brewers and bakers of old? Has anyone ever tried using Dekkera/Brettanomyces to produce a "Belgian" style pressed Virginia flake?

Pease: Personally, I’ve never quite been able to grok the "ketchup" thing. Certainly, there are some tobaccos that exhibit an acetic aroma, and with some expansion of the imagination, I might be able to find something akin to BBQ sauce on occasion, or perhaps Branston Pickle, but not ketchup. I’ve even gone so far as to open a bottle of ketchup and compare its aroma side-by-side with that of the most infamous of "ketchup" tobaccos, and I still don’t get it. I think people confuse their condiments, sometimes. Next thing you know, it’ll be mustard, and arguments will ensue over whether it’s Dijon or yellow.

More seriously, you’re right in that fermentation is the cause of this notable aroma, whatever someone may choose to call it. To the best of my knowledge, blending houses don’t inoculate their tobaccos with specific microflora in order to get these effects, but rely on the wild yeasts and bacteria that are present in their environment. One one occasion, I managed to recreate a similar effect, albeit accidentally, so I’m quite sure it’s not the result of any sort of additives; just the natural process that tobacco goes through under certain controlled conditions.

I like the idea, though, of using specific saccharomyces to excite fermentation in a tobacco. It might make for an interesting red ale. And, from the trivia department, the aging of tobacco was once referred to as lagering. Maybe beer and tobacco are linked more closely than we know.
(In another place that I can't find right now, GLP talks about speaking with McNeil from McClelland directly about it, with confirmation that it is all natural.)

So, to me, it only makes sense that the people claiming that McClelland uses additives (vinegar or otherwise) should produce some sort of case for the claim they make. But I know better, this is the internet afterall!

:face:
 
keen smoke":nacjr86u said:
Its unfortunate that so many people continually accuse McClelland of adding chemicals, vinegar, whatever to their tobacco that produce that acetic aroma when there is absolutely no evidence of that - not even hearsay that comes from supposed industry experts. I've never seen anything at all to back up this claim, but somehow it has reached the point of being common knowledge thanks to years and years of ignorant reviews on TR that never expire, and discussions on forums and elsewhere.

As many politicians understand well... if you say something enough times, and get other people to say it too, it becomes true (even if it isn't).

Are McClelland tobaccos distinctive and quite different from GLP/C&D and others - absolutely. Do the ones that include matured and/or stoved VA have an acetic aroma that is strong upon first opening tin? Totally, imo. But they take the time to do something with their product that few (if any) others do. Time is money, after all. If you prefer the tastes of something like C&D and its fresher, un-stoved leaf components that's cool - enjoy! But that isn't the only form of natural, additive-free tobacco.

So anyway, comments from a couple of people just to help the discussion:

Tad Gage, who reviews for Pipes and Tobaccos magazine (print) and has worked directly with McClelland on blends, posted this on another site a while back:

This [what people refer to as ketchupy/vinegary] is a direct result of the intense and intentional stoving process used for selected blends, but is by no means “characteristic” of McClelland blends. It is also a completely natural occurance caused by the stoving, aging and caking process, and something that frequently occurs with Virginia tobaccos over the course of many years of tin aging. It is not contrived by the use of flavorings or any artificial processes.

As anyone who does some cooking knows, heat and pressure have the ability to transform ingredients from one thing to something completely different. A tough and terrible pork shoulder roast, cooked slowly for hours, can transform into something totally soft and delectible. And think about Perique, which is basic Burley tobacco that under tremendous pressure and with sufficient aging, transforms into a completly different tobacco. Clearly, the same is true with Virginia leaf. It can range from bright flue-cured to something dark and unctuous that is quite different from the original product. My point is that the processing makes all the difference.
In one of his "Ask GLP" articles on PipesMagazine, Pease commented on this phenomenon as well:

H.R. writes: Many have commented on the "ketchup" odor of certain Virginia blends, the result of vinegar produced during fermentation. (I always noticed a pronounced "dill pickle" aroma in the old Sullivan Powell’s Gentleman’s Mixture.) Do tobacco processors and blenders use specifically chosen yeast, acetobacter or lactobacillus cultures to engender the results they want, or are they just letting nature take its course, as did the winemakers, brewers and bakers of old? Has anyone ever tried using Dekkera/Brettanomyces to produce a "Belgian" style pressed Virginia flake?

Pease: Personally, I’ve never quite been able to grok the "ketchup" thing. Certainly, there are some tobaccos that exhibit an acetic aroma, and with some expansion of the imagination, I might be able to find something akin to BBQ sauce on occasion, or perhaps Branston Pickle, but not ketchup. I’ve even gone so far as to open a bottle of ketchup and compare its aroma side-by-side with that of the most infamous of "ketchup" tobaccos, and I still don’t get it. I think people confuse their condiments, sometimes. Next thing you know, it’ll be mustard, and arguments will ensue over whether it’s Dijon or yellow.

More seriously, you’re right in that fermentation is the cause of this notable aroma, whatever someone may choose to call it. To the best of my knowledge, blending houses don’t inoculate their tobaccos with specific microflora in order to get these effects, but rely on the wild yeasts and bacteria that are present in their environment. One one occasion, I managed to recreate a similar effect, albeit accidentally, so I’m quite sure it’s not the result of any sort of additives; just the natural process that tobacco goes through under certain controlled conditions.

I like the idea, though, of using specific saccharomyces to excite fermentation in a tobacco. It might make for an interesting red ale. And, from the trivia department, the aging of tobacco was once referred to as lagering. Maybe beer and tobacco are linked more closely than we know.
(In another place that I can't find right now, GLP talks about speaking with McNeil from McClelland directly about it, with confirmation that it is all natural.)

So, to me, it only makes sense that the people claiming that McClelland uses additives (vinegar or otherwise) should produce some sort of case for the claim they make. But I know better, this is the internet afterall!

:face:
You're right, of course. I've been arguing this point for awhile now in various forums, but some folks are just convinced it HAS to be vinegar or some kind of casing. I've personally bought red VA from C&D that developed exactly that same ketchupy aroma after awhile in a jar, and I recently opened an aged can of Opening Night that had it, as well.
I think part of the issue here is also the type of VAs used. McClelland uses American-grown VAs, while most of the European producers buy VA from Africa. Since the big name VAs are usually from Europe, it's no surprise that people assume that, say, "pure" tobacco tastes live FVF instead of Blackwoods Flake when the reverse is actually the case. The soil/region a tobacco is grown is as important as the strain itself -- when you try to grow orientals in the States they basically grow up to become burlies, and when you try to grow perique anywhere but Louisiana it just doesn't work.
 
Like I've said, if you state something IS such, then it BECOMES SUCH! The power of suggestion is STRONG :p ( and I've not found much resemblence in aroma of my Ketchup/Catsup in my frig to ANY of my McC 'bacs , but they DO have an acidic scent as I recall the VA 'bac my family used to sell :p )
 
Nope, no problems with McC tobacco blends here. I like Ketchup, but never experienced that in a McC blend...

Not sure how that got started, but it's something I've ever noticed.
 
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