Why is Buying Pipes (on a Budget) So Difficult?

[Kyle Weiss]

At about 28 is when I found out so-called "cool" guys actually weren't, and the guys not trying so hard were pretty damned cool. Go figure. Leaves a lot more room for doing other things when socially-driven achievements aren't on the list. Approval is for suckers, anyway. Life's too short, etc. Still, it's a big world, and some people want to stand up and be counted. I just want simple, quiet and happy. To each his own.

Hobbies that turn into jobs aren't always the best line of work. Made that mistake a few times...now I'm not doing certain things for joy or work. Hey, whittles down the overwhelming interests and selections a tad, anyway.

You know what the good news is? There's a particular Ben Wade that's really making the best out of some Nightcap. And the sun is shining on me. And Oscar Peterson is workin' the keys on a recording I like.

8)

 

[Anonymous]

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

:face:

 

[peckinpahhombre]

Some economics and number-think.

If a well-respected pipemaker, worth his salt in every way, worked for ten hours on a pipe, and lets say he is working for $30 per hour--a respectable wage for a guy working machinery, working hard and reasonably to the quality of his craft. Suddenly he's at $300 for the pipe. What'd the briar cost? 10 pieces at $25 a pop? Whoops, two had bad flaws, into the bin they go... Now he's at $330. Using his $3,000 lathe (and various other tools) he breaks one... $50 to fix? Maybe it was just a $5 bit, or a $250 part... But we can't pass that on to his pipe, really, just going to have to absorb it. How about services paid to keep the power/heat on? Driving to the post office might cost another couple of bucks. Provided he's "on the books" there's taxes he has to worry about, maybe insurance if he's smart (machinery and all)...maybe he has a wife and kids, no different than many others...

...when I start adding up the numbers, a $500+ pipe, that really is worth that much because it is that exceptional, gives me no hesitation as to where the money is going. Maybe they aren't feeding and housing the poor, but I certainly am not seeing many pipe makers pulling up in Ferraris, lifting six giggling whoremodels off their laps and dusting the caviar off lapels. Honestly, it makes me wonder why some guys charge so little for their wares, when I think about it.

In this case, I'm at least talking about guys that really can turn a pipe or two. These aren't guys that sh*t gold bricks (do nothing) and then rake people over coals. There might be one or two, but I say the vast majority are guys asking a fair price for their talent, let alone expenditures therein.

8)

Kyle, this crystalizes my thoughts exactly. I don't really mind paying $300 or $500 for a pipe for this exact reason. I am mesmerized by the skill a Rev or Growly or Rad Davis bring to their art and I think they are worth every penny. Now, I understand that not everyone can afford to buy pipes at that price, well, fine, but that doesn't make these pipes overpriced. In my personal circumstances, I have been blessed because I have knowledge, talent and skill wholly unrelated to pipe-making that many people are willing to pay quite well for. I am thankful for that, and these guys are no different. I respect their skill and the time, attention and capital (both human and financial) that they have devoted to their calling.

 

[the rev]

I have found that I would rather live very simply and do something I love than do a job that sucks the soul out of my life. Being a person of extremes, there isn't much middle ground. I really do enjoy my work, and I would enjoy pipe making more.

rev

 

[Kyle Weiss]

Well, from what I see, too, you have the skills, creativity and talent for it. What and how you approach it is as unique and individual as you are, hell, for that matter, as any carver/briar-turner is. In my limited ability to meet them, they are all over the map in approach, personality and product, however they all share tenacity and finery for their work--a little pugnaciousness wouldn't hurt.

Mastering the two extremes, I find middle-ground to be a wonderful next step to get used to, personally. Most call it selling out, indecisive or avoidant, and none of that has been true. Just another viewpoint and approach. The toolbox of life has plenty of room for this adventurer.

Hey, Rev, made any new pipes lately? I haven't seen them posted in a while. Or I missed them entirely.

8)

 

[rothnh]

Bruce (I forget his last name) was at the 2008 Chicago Pipe Show, talking to J.T.D. Cooke.

Bruce told Jim that he loved his blasted pipes but could not afford one.

Jim said, "Bruce, I understand, neither can I."

 

[the rev]

Well, from what I see, too, you have the skills, creativity and talent for it. What and how you approach it is as unique and individual as you are, hell, for that matter, as any carver/briar-turner is. In my limited ability to meet them, they are all over the map in approach, personality and product, however they all share tenacity and finery for their work--a little pugnaciousness wouldn't hurt.

Mastering the two extremes, I find middle-ground to be a wonderful next step to get used to, personally. Most call it selling out, indecisive or avoidant, and none of that has been true. Just another viewpoint and approach. The toolbox of life has plenty of room for this adventurer.

Hey, Rev, made any new pipes lately? I haven't seen them posted in a while. Or I missed them entirely.

8)

I have two that are almost done, and a third that is really close, these are basically waiting for my stamp, as I need to know exactly how big it is before I rusticate the shank. Then I have four with the stems cut and the basic shaping done, so I just need to clean them up carve the stems and finish them. Then two more that I have drilled and partially carved and stems fit. I would say in the next two weeks you should see about five or six finished pipes in the gallery.

rev

 

[Kyle Weiss]

Lookin' forward to it.

8)

 

[Vito]

The reason is that (as noted) pipe smoking's gone viral now. A couple years ago, $35.00 tops. Today, too many pipers with too many bucks chasing stuff.

I'm looking forward to it dropping like a lead weight. People are so empty and lost that they chase things more than they ever have... People approach things in the most cockeyed ways...that don't lay solid groundwork for long term appreciation and interest...

It's the sister component of buying instant collections and instant cellars. I remember what it was like to buy 20 albums a week. I could listen to them once, and maybe twice if they were hitting just the right mood at just the right time, but I couldn't absorb any of them. I couldn't tell you about any of the details. I couldn't hope that a relationship with the music was beginning. I was just accumulating music at a rate where the only joy was: it was new, and it was a new package in the mail.

I can tell you ever little thing about the albums I heard as a teenager. I can write a dissertation about how each affected my life and how each affected me in different ways in different times. Those new albums bought in a time of too plenty? They mean so little in comparison. Our ultra-fast society is good for some things, but it isn't good for developing complex, rich, ever-evolving relationships. A key component to such relationships is slow absorption...

I'm not implying the present is shit and the past was golden. Been around collectibles of many kinds. Been around several pastimes. There are some good indicators of who is going to be around in ten years and who is not, and they're not much more than common sense. The tortoise lives a long, steady race. Unfortunately, we live in a time of speed and hareness.

Holy shinola, Zeno! That is a brilliant post. Let a round of hearty huzzahs ensue. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

 

[Anonymous]

8)

:face:

 

[sisyphus]

Back to pipes, bargains aren't easy to find. That's why they're called bargains. That said, when you know pipes and you know what you like, you can find some real steals on occasion.

I'll pay whatever a pipe is worth to me. My cutoff is about $450. I just can't justify more than that while raising my kids on what I make. I've only spent that amount on two occaisions, and I've bought a couple of $500+ pipes for about half their value. I've also paid $15-25 bucks for estates that were, to me, desirable pipes, and I could tell by the pics that they'd restore beautifully under all that schmutz. They did, and I value them as much as any pipe I paid 10x as much for.

Spend what you can spend. It's not about the dollar signs. It's about buying pipes that will give you gratification from the moment you open the mail. When you really know pipes and what your preferences are, you will find some steals, and you'll feel like a genius every time you snag a treasure for less than you were willing to pay for it.

 

[Vito]

...Do I have to price my pipes below what they are worth (worth being dictated by what someone will pay for them – emphasis added), because I do not want to be extortionate?

No, brothah rev, you don't. And neither does anyone else. And your definition of worth is spot on. All value is subjective, as in "Beauty (and worth) is in the eye of the beholder." That's exactly the way free markets are supposed to work. No one forces you to sell anything for a price other than the one you want to sell it for, and no one forces anyone to buy it for a price they're not willing to pay. The market sorts out all the rest of it, equalizing supply and demand via the mechanism of pricing. Competition fills in the niches at all price points.

Where it gets out of whack is when it's no longer free to operate on its own. Subsidies, punitive or socially engineered taxation and regulation, manipulation of the currency, tariffs, coercive redistribution schemes...all of it, no matter how well-intentioned, serves only to screw up the impartial, natural self-stabilizing nature of free markets. I agree that some of the high prices attached to the most expensive high-end pipe marques seem to defy reason, but in the end, my "democratic" power — the one that matters most — is that I'm free not to buy them. The pipemakers are free to charge whatever the market will bear. If they can't sell their pipes at the asking price, they'll lower it until they find a buyer. It's not complicated.

What's more, as we all know, if all you want is a great smoke, that's available for a relative pittance with a cob, or any number of inexpensive old-wood marvels whose only affliction is that they bear unrecognized or ungilded names. My Stanwells and Petersons are among my best smokers, and I own many other pipes that have even lower brand-name recognition, but they smoke just as well. The only thing I missed by buying them instead of stuff that costs ten or twenty times as much was something that doesn't matter to me anyway: bragging rights. :mrgreen:

Which is not to say that I disdain the craftsmanship and...well, outright artistry that accompanies pricier pipage. I have my share of them, and I value them accordingly. I would be a hypocrite to assert that others are not free to make similar choices for themselves. All that matters is that they have the choices to make, and they make the ones that make them happy.

 

[the rev]

I for one hope pipe smoking gets more popular, as it is more healthy, and I would like to earn a living making pipes. I understand people want to buy pipes for thirty five dollars, but I believe that workmen are worthy of their artisan ship

rev

 

[Anonymous]

FWIW : collectors like GLP, NAR (& several others) have posted astute analyses of the contemporary pipe market as it relates to new(er) carvers.

The usual saga is a guy sees established makers getting $X for new pipes and figures he'll make some and clean up by charging $0.5X for his. He takes them to shows and they twist in the wind.

For one thing, a number of other guys he's in competition with there had the same idea. For another, his stuff looks great to him but probably has a ways to go, both technically and aesthetically, to appeal to the market segment he's aiming at. For a third, pipes of that sort are, in no small part, sold on the maker's reputation, and he doesn't have one (yet).

There's a pretty high attrition rate in that line of work, and it's not because people can't (or don't) produce recognisably high-quality work. It's because they can't get what they need to for what they make, week in and week out. In light of which, keeping pipe-making a basement project until what the maker's doing (hopefully) starts making a name for itself in the world at large is a wise approach.

There's no "fairness" aspect to it. Money talks.

And it has the last word.

:face:

 

[the rev]

well the fact that I live very simply (meaning I don't have to make much to live), and the fact that I can also do part time handyman work at a fairly high rate, means I can make a go of it. I would like to make a living doing my painting, my pipes and my handyman work. In the end, I feel the pipe making has the most integrity, as the art world is very crooked, and handyman work seems in some ways co-dependant.

rev

 

[Anonymous]

Good luck to you.

We can say "we knew you when."

:face:

 

[the rev]

when I was 15 I wanted to become one of the best bullfighters (forcados a portuguese style) in the world, I became the best or second best in the states and was respected by the best matador in Portugal. When I was thirty, I decided I wanted to become a professional fighter, and did, but also became a world class submission grappler. When I set my mind to something I usually can do pretty well...

but man this pipe thing is not easy. You have to have a mind like an engineer during some phases, and the mind of an artist in other phases, and the tenacity of a construction worker getting up everyday and doing his job no matter what, and then you still have to have some kind of salesmanship on top of that. I have to admit, I have never, in my entire life felt intimidated by anyone or anything, until I took up this quest. But with my personality that just makes me more stubborn

With my luck I will just start reaching a stride when tobacco will be made illegal and I will be considered a purveyor of contraband

rev

 

[Vito]

I for one hope pipe smoking gets more popular, as it is more healthy, and I would like to earn a living making pipes. I understand people want to buy pipes for thirty five dollars, but I believe that workmen are worthy of their artisan ship

rev

Brothah rev:

I wish you all the best success in your quest to support yourself as a pipemaker. Even if I can't afford your pipes, someone can. And notwithstanding Kyle's and Yak's astute observations about the potential pitfalls inherent in turning one's creative passion into a profession (which I understand firsthand from my own scientific, engineering, and musical careers), it seems to me that you've got a healthy perspective about what it takes to keep it all in balance with your other, more (dare I say it?)...er, spiritual aspirations, which appear to be no less creative in their own way.

Good on ya, brothah man. Live long and prosper!

________________

There's no "fairness" aspect to it. Money talks.

Thou speakest the truth, Yakstopher. On its face, it seems to be a "cold, hard fact" that many folks disdain, associating it with greed, heartlessness, exploitation, avarice, and many other epithets that it has become fashionable to automatically (and wrongly) associate with profit...which itself seems to have become a dirty word.

Yet, as so many have rightly noted in this thread, profit is the engine that drives folks to produce the goods and services we all want and need—things that make our lives better. If there were no profit, we'd have nothing.

So, it's not really profit that is the bad guy. We should use another word for ill-gotten gains through theft, fraud, or lack of sincere desire to exchange value given for value received in mutually beneficial transactions. (I personally favor the word "plunder".) Profit should, by definition, always be moral. It would clean up a lot of semantic confusion, and remove the stigma that has wrongly been attached to the engine of human achievement.

And of course, if you include the intangible (i.e., non-monetary) component of "gain" in profit — such as the kind of profit that someone like the rev receives for his beneficent work for others — then the whole concept of profit is liberated from the negative connotations it never should have had in the first place, if people would only unmuddle their thinking.

Oh, wait...er, never mind. :mrgreen:

 

[Anonymous]

:heart: :joker: :heart:

Within your system parameters (and constraints), your analysis is the last word.

As usual, we view matters from un-reconciled perspectives. You from within a system I wouldn't attempt to "refute," because it's too well-reasoned ; Yr. Obt. Svt. because his perspective subsumes yours and others as well.

Try it this way : Every year, in the fall, the Susquehannocks here in Yaksylvania drove the forest around them, taking a deer census. They guesstimated the population, decided how many they could take that year without impairing the herd (actually a good thing for the deer, as the winter carrying capacity of the forest was below the annual population peak), and took that many. No more.

Simple ecology that it took us how many centuries to get through our heads ?

With that in mind, roll back the clock to Germany in the 1500s. In preparation for Tax Day, the Free Cities published their annual reports, with an estimate of how much would be required the following fiscal year.

On Tax Day, there was a box set up with a slit in its lid at a central location. During Tax Day, people stopped by as it was convenient, and dropped their share into the box. Nobody kept a checklist to see who contributed or didn't, and nobody watched to see how much each one was putting in.

That's how people conducted their civic business then. It worked because the City was THEIRS. A collective endeavor it took everybody working together to maintain. The rich didn't skimp because they could get away with it, because if it failed, they went down with it. Working sods contributed coppers ; rich merchants, gold.

Instead of piranna-eat-piranna, it was everybody's in this together. Because they weren't pirannas.

Now take it one step further to the point of this -- to the Guild system. Take lute-making. The luthiers' guild (the origin of the term) throughout the German-speaking realm held monopoly on the manufacture, repair and sale of lutes. On the same ecological principle, being self-governing, they never allowed the number of luthiers to fall below the level that would guarantee an adequate supply, even though each would then have been able to squeeze more out of each sale. Nor would they admit more apprentices than would result in a steady supply of replacement masters when their time came. Quality control was rigid, because the reputation of their output was critical, and "cheap foreign competition" was not allowed to undermine the system that worked to everyone's balanced advantage. (And the lack of which, in Italy, economically annihilated Italian violinmaking when the farm--factory system got rolling in Mittenwald, Fussen & elsewhere there).

Nor could they under-pay their workmen. guild rules.

The assumptions determine the conclusions.

In a tank full of pirannas that's operated on piranna lines from such time out of mind that people (by default) accept piranna-behavior as "normal human nature" in action, your prescription fits the case. To a "T."

But with reference to a world organised along different lines, on a different basis, with correspondingly different assumptions, it could even be seen as providing rational cover for what should not, on moral grounds, be allowed to exist.

The Bavarian State Violinmaking School at Mittenwald (no free-market, corner-cutting, education-for-money competition allowed) accepts the number of students each year calculated to keep the collective operating at a high level. Scions of violinmaking families receive preferential treatment (violinmaking is, after all, largely a hereditary occupation -- some families going back to the 1700s in it) provided they prove capable, but not to the point where talented and motivated candidates without "connections" are excluded.

Hell, one year (1924) they even granted a scholarship to an Italian ! (Vincenzo Sannino) (It was a mistake they still talk about. He'd saunter down the street after school, pinching women's bottoms and making lewd suggestions to them. He had the whole town in an uproar and left after one semester, by mutual agreement).

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

And folks ARE diffrent.

:face:

PS : I've used the word "allowed" twice in this. And it's probably raised your hackles. But I think you can see the existential legitimacy of it as the analogue, in the human realm, of not allowing weeds in your garden.

 

[Vito]

...As usual, we view matters from un-reconciled perspectives...

Hell, one year (1924) they even granted a scholarship to an Italian...

Ohmygawd...an actual Italian! Well, I never... :shock:

Yeah, I see your point. We can't be letting these doggone foreigners in, polluting our national purity. Why, if we let 'em start making lutes and guitars, next thing you know they'll wanna start making violins. Then where will we be? Why, we might even end up with abominations with names like Stradivari. Can't have that. :mrgreen: