Broad problems

[Kyle Weiss]

Hence why the other thread of "Three favorite __________ " was just not going to work for me. :lol:

8)

 

[sam a]

Hence why the other thread of "Three favorite __________ " was just not going to work for me. :lol:

8)

it's hard being a polymath :study:

 

[Kyle Weiss]

Hence why the other thread of "Three favorite __________ " was just not going to work for me. :lol:

8)

it's hard being a polymath :study:

Read that at first as "Polymoth." I imagined a man, of disco-hero descent, with two huge eyes on wing flaps attached at the hip and at the elbows. The rare Shiny Polyester Sphinx Moth. Mirrorball spinning. Unce unce.

8)

 

[sam a]

that would likely be hard too.

 

[Kyle Weiss]

Watching Disco Godfather very recently kind of messed me up for a while. Sorry about that.

 

[PreppyHippy]

Something against crusties huh?

My wife!

 

[Vito]

Anyone know what to do with humanity and the universe? I think they're not working properly.

beetlejazz:

I haven't noticed that the universe is working any differently from the way it always has...well, at least for as long as I've been extant on this mortal coil.

Humanity is another story altogether. I wouldn't presume to say whether it's working properly, but I suspect that it's working in perfect accordance with "human nature". I have a few complaints on that subject. Alas, there doesn't seem to be anywhere to register those complaints.

...well, except while looking in the mirror. :mrgreen:

 

[Kyle Weiss]

Can't argue with that, Veet.

8)

 

[the rev]

problem with that is it is generally an unreceptive audience

rev

 

[Natch]

Anyone know what to do with humanity and the universe? I think they're not working properly.

beetlejazz:

I haven't noticed that the universe is working any differently from the way it always has...well, at least for as long as I've been extant on this mortal coil.

Humanity is another story altogether. I wouldn't presume to say whether it's working properly, but I suspect that it's working in perfect accordance with "human nature". I have a few complaints on that subject. Alas, there doesn't seem to be anywhere to register those complaints.

...well, except while looking in the mirror. :mrgreen:

Pogo summed it up a while back:



This was the first Earth Day version, but he said it earlier in regards to political parties and an (then) upcoming presidential election.

Guess only the color of the mud slung changes?

Natch

 

[Vito]

...he said it earlier in regards to political parties and an (then) upcoming presidential election.

Guess only the color of the mud slung changes?

Natch

Precisely true, Natch. Mud is still mud, regardless of its color. In the end, we're still reduced to a choice among mudslingers, all of whom are unqualified to rule because they seek to do so. Those who still believe that "their guy" can fix the mess have a great deal to look forward to in the area of losing their delusions.

The popularity contests we call "elections" have nothing to do with actual government. They are an artifact of the well-intentioned but obviously success-proof attempt of the founders of the U.S. constitutional republic to replace hereditary monarchy with elected polyarchy.

The effect was to distribute the despotism across a broader range of institutions, but it did nothing to de-institutionalize it. Replacing the despots via elections does not eliminate the despotism itself, the result being that legislated stupidity is more deeply entrenched now than it ever was under His Majesty the King.

As far as I can tell, the differences between the candidates (especially in presidential elections) are trivial. They all lie, none of them keep the promises on which they get themselves elected, and in the end, everything they do results in more political laws, which reduce personal freedom and solve nothing.

It still comes back to the mirror. In the end, the price of freedom (which everyone thinks they want) is true self-governance. But that requires responsibility for one's own thoughts, words, and deeds. It's still possible to cultivate it individually...but alas, our culture doesn't encourage it any more.

 

[Kyle Weiss]

I heard someone complain they couldn't text in their Prez candidate vote, like they could for their talent TV show participants. It was a very serious complaining jive, too. I kind of laughed. Then got told I was a jerk for not taking it seriously.

Fair game. *shrug*

8)

 

[Vito]

Right...I'm sure the person who said that to you was completely serious, Kyle. And that's precisely indicative of the problem. Perhaps that's an example of the kind of thing that led beetlejazz to make the observation about humanity "not working properly" in the first place.

"We" (by which I mean the vast majority of humanoids to whom phones that "only" make phone calls are primitive objects, and to whom life without Facebook would be unthinkable) have become an Instant Society™—15-second sound bites, texted one-liners, instant mashed potatoes, instant messaging, instant gratification.

In my darker moments, I tend to think that it's all coming to a head. We've managed to avoid nuclear self-extermination (so far), but the jury's still out as to whether we'll survive what Kurzweil calls "the singularity". When machines can think, they won't be machines any more. What will they learn from history...from us? Kill or be killed?

If so, we will no longer have to worry about whether humanity is working properly. Or anything else.

 

[alfredo_buscatti]

Hi Vito,

"Battlestar Galactica," one of my favorite sci-fi's, depicts man-made machines killing humans in large number, and somewhere along the line nukes happen; and as the series moves along we find that this has happened on multiple planets, leaving them a nuclear wasteland.

I too believe that personal responsibility is the gateway to freedom. I think people are loathe to accept it. That means looking at the self critically when things go wrong. Though it may be hard to understand, when things go wrong, we are more than probably at least partially culpable. But admitting this makes us feel vulnerable, while if we get angry and blame the environment for our problem, we feel empowered because what is at fault is outside of ourselves; and we adopt this "I mean business" attitude and set about trying to change the environment. The problem is that the environment has a mind of its own, particularly if approached in a blaming, hateful fashion.

Aframericans are my favorites for pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. However when considering poverty Dick Gregory said "We need more boots!" Maybe. What I do know is that a few people born into impoverished circumstances and all that this implies, are able to leave that life. Fortune may have allowed that upward movement, but I'm betting on a great attitude; and part of that attitude, I am convinced, is taking responsibility for everything that is wrong in their lives.

When you blame the environment you cannot change the environment. When you get angry and assign blame, you don't find the hooks inside yourself that drew you to that experience. As Vito said, these hooks are our thoughts, words and actions.

 

[MisterE]

Well, the singularity makes perfect sense. We seem to always want something, or somebody else to think and do for us, lol. As Alfredo pointed out, we can then continue to externalize the blame. Skynet ahoy.

 

[Vito]

Signore Alfredo:

I'm not sure about the environment having a mind of its own. Humans have a tendency to anthropomorphize everything. Perhaps that's part of the same egotism that keeps us from looking honestly at ourselves first as the sowers of our own karmic seeds.

Anyhow, what you say is true. If the price of freedom is personal responsibility (and it is), then the human species has a long, long way to go. You can "elect" someone else to take that responsibility for you, but that won't make it happen. You'll only end up enslaving yourself to someone who can't possibly know what's best for you in the first place.

I guess that's another part of the problem. Maybe folks just don't want to take responsibility for themselves. It's easier to say "It's the government's job." OK, fine. Then you'll reap what you sow there too. And it won't be freedom.

The hell of it is that, no matter how much of what we call "bad" that happens to us and is caused by others, there's generally not a whole hell of a lot that we can do about others. We cram all the "bad" stuff into some kind of symbolism that lets us shift the blame, but that doesn't solve anything. We choose up sides for games of political football...

• "It's the Democans' fault."
• "Bullshit, it's the Republicrats' fault."

...but those labels are just illusions of separateness that reinforce our desire to separate humanity into good guys and bad guys. It's the age-old "us vs. them" model of human interaction. It makes it easier to believe that we’re actually accomplishing something as long as our guy wins. Meanwhile, the zero-sum game continues.

I’m not an unreconstructed idealist. The pragmatist in me recognizes that there are scumbags who will do me great harm if I let them. No question about that. Sentimental notions that all men are brothahs can't obviate the reality that not all men live that way. But notwithstanding Douglas MacArthur's practical recognition of the truth that "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance", I'm convinced that the path to freedom — not merely political or economic freedom, but genuine intellectual, psychological, and (dare I say it) spiritual freedom — lies in whatever it takes us humanoids to learn that the price of freedom is personal responsibility. That’s an individual task, not something we get by joining political clubs or other mobs.

It hasn't escaped my attention that, historically, those who brought that message have not been treated kindly. :no:

 

[Vito]

Well, the singularity makes perfect sense. We seem to always want something, or somebody else to think and do for us, lol. As Alfredo pointed out, we can then continue to externalize the blame. Skynet ahoy.

MisterE:

Hmmm...if I'm understanding correctly what you mean, you're saying the the emergence of the phenomenon called the singularity will be a direct result of people wanting machines to do their thinking for them?

If that's what you mean, I hadn't thought of it in that way. But I suppose you're right. Whatever the motivation might be at the conscious level, it's certainly true that in the most general sense we've tried to use technology to make our lives easier. Whether or not we end up succeeding has a lot to do with the degree to which we anticipate the consequences of that effort. The consequences aren't always beneficial.

For example, Alfred Nobel (inventor of dynamite) was convinced that his invention would finally put an end to war. Why? Because it was "obvious" (to him) that high explosives would make war so utterly destructive that no rational person would risk going to war with such weapons.

The flaw in his thinking isn't hard to spot. :mrgreen:

 

[MisterE]

You made my point in your post to Alfredo, except you put it far more eloquently. :mrgreen:

Humans have a tendency to anthropomorphize everything. Perhaps that's part of the same egotism that keeps us from looking honestly at ourselves first as the sowers of our own karmic seeds.

Anyhow, what you say is true. If the price of freedom is personal responsibility (and it is), then the human species has a long, long way to go. You can "elect" someone else to take that responsibility for you, but that won't make it happen. You'll only end up enslaving yourself to someone who can't possibly know what's best for you in the first place.

I guess that's another part of the problem. Maybe folks just don't want to take responsibility for themselves. It's easier to say "It's the government's job." OK, fine. They you'll reap what you sow there too. And it won't be freedom.

 

[Vito]

You made my point in your post to Alfredo, except you put it far more eloquently. :mrgreen:

Yeah...sorry about that eloquence thang. It's a birth defect, and it gets me into a lot of trouble. I've looked into surgical correction, but lobotomy seems to be the only cure. :mrgreen:

 

[Kyle Weiss]

Ahoy, Rubber Room, pull up anchors, away we sail...

...I like preaching the good word, that of disbelieving the lies and questioning everything. It starts to make sense when I often am only repeating things to myself after a while, or others of common ilk and manner of observational thinking begin singing the same tune. Guys talking about how great it was to wake up early and witness the dawn, sometimes keep talking about it in the afternoon, perhaps the next day. I shrug, and move on to look for a taqueria.

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